outliers vs consistency

Originally posted by carver9
Hope people understand that characters like Hulk himself even have showings of being mentioned and showing him having SUPER speed. We are either looking at consistency or a characters capabilities. If we are looking at capabilities, Hulk dance around Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak without getting touched. If it's consistency we are looking at, then he would get punched by Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak.

That's completely wrong.

I mean, you tried to make a decent point, sure, but your examples were awful.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's completely wrong.

I mean, you tried to make a decent point, sure, but your examples were awful.

😂 ... I feel that even if my point was solid, you'll still disagree with it. You're my Joker (and yes, I'm batman).

😂

@galan: I get that you want to separate abilities from powers but in the case of Nate grey, where he’s only demonstrated speed of that type one time, do you view that as a one off or do you think it’s a natural ability that he should be allowed all the time? The same can go for Orion or even to use carvers example, the hulk. They’ve demonstrated some rare instances of speed so you think those rare instances are enough to make the allowance and simply grant than that speed in all matches, despite vast amounts of evidence to the contrary regarding how they typically fight?

I’m not saying you’re right or wrong. Just curious if you see Nates ability as the same type of ability as these others or if you think it’s different. Can you list one or 2 abilities you’d personally consider invalid for a couple characters? Or pr maybe you could name a couple? I’m genuinely curious how different people interpret the issue.

Originally posted by carver9
😂 ... I feel that even if my point was solid, you'll still disagree with it. You're my Joker (and yes, I'm batman).

facepalm

Say something that's actually true, and we'll see.

😂

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

@galan: I get that you want to separate abilities from powers but in the case of Nate grey, where he’s only demonstrated speed of that type one time, do you view that as a one off or do you think it’s a natural ability that he should be allowed all the time? The same can go for Orion or even to use carvers example, the hulk. They’ve demonstrated some rare instances of speed so you think those rare instances are enough to make the allowance and simply grant than that speed in all matches, despite vast amounts of evidence to the contrary regarding how they typically fight?

I’m not saying you’re right or wrong. Just curious if you see Nates ability as the same type of ability as these others or if you think it’s different. Can you list one or 2 abilities you’d personally consider invalid for a couple characters? Or pr maybe you could name a couple? I’m genuinely curious how different people interpret the issue.

If the character in question has only displayed a basic physical ability(like enhanced speed) a few times over years, but no other material retcons/contradicts it, I do think it is logical to believe they would use it in a forum fight... Assuming it's reasonably in character for them to do so(provided the stipulations of the thread.)

I'll just use Orion as an example:
-Would he use a speed advantage in your typical forum fight against a brick type? Probably not. He's a natural brawler who likes to test his strength and whatnot.
-Would he use a speed advantage if his opponent were preparing to shoot him with a Radion bullet? Probably so. He literally has no other defense, and will die if it hits him.

Point being, even that side of the discussion can be scenario-dependent.

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so, i've been legit curious about this topic. it's come up a couple times recently. the question is how many times does a character need to show an ability/power for it to count as a legitimate ability in a vs match?

for example, combat speed. in a recent orion thread there were a few good speed feats posted, but the sheer number of feats utterly pales in comparison to the times he hasn't demonstrated combat speed in fights. so do we consider those few feats enough? it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).

there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?

i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?

Spider-Man dodges Wolverine, overpowers him, and choke slams him unconscious: Outlier.

Batman reacts to Zoom, walks off pavement slam by bloodlusted Wonder Woman: Perfectly legit!

😇

Originally posted by Galan007
That's probably where the "In Character" clause comes into play.

If the character in question has only displayed a basic physical ability(like enhanced speed) a few times over years, but no other material retcons/contradicts it, I do think it is logical to believe they would use it in a forum fight... Assuming it's reasonably in character for them to do so(provided the stipulations of the thread.)

I'll just use Orion as an example:
-Would he use a speed advantage in your typical forum fight against a brick type? Probably not. He's a natural brawler who likes to test his strength and whatnot.
-Would he use a speed advantage if his opponent were preparing to shoot him with a Radion bullet? Probably so. He literally has no other defense, and will die if it hits him.

Point being, even that side of the discussion can be scenario-dependent.

Okay that’s fair. So moving away from a natural ability how do you regard Ltd showings of powers? If someone displays a power very rarely, (use nates time stop for xample) do you think a limited showing of said ability automatically means that ability is simply out of character, or can it be situation dependent like a natural ability like speed? Is it valid for Nate to stop time or black bolt to use matter manipulation? Time stop was shown once bolts matter manipulation is very rare. Are both simply ooc do you think?

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalm

Say something that's actually true, and we'll see.

Question, how many times does a character have to display super speed for it to be an accurate representation of his powerset?

There are levels to superspeed,Carv, just like there are levels to superstrength.

USAgent has superstrength. Luke Cage has superstrength. Neither are armwrestling Hulk, lol.

Originally posted by carver9
Question, how many times does a character have to display super speed for it to be an accurate representation of his powerset?

Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.

THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time! 👆

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. 😂 i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it. 👆

Surely it also depends on the number of appearances - no real hard fast rule.

So for example, Damage and Wolverine. Damage has like..... ten appearances? Wolverine can have that amount in a week, lol. But if Damage has one showing of superspeed, that's surely enough.

The question then becomes how do we define it. Tagging a speedster isn't really proof (depending on the showing of course) - everyone has done that lol. But outrunning a car/plane ,for example, would be, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time! 👆

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. 😂 i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it. 👆

I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager 😄

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Surely it also depends on the number of appearances - no real hard fast rule.

So for example, Damage and Wolverine. Damage has like..... ten appearances? Wolverine can have that amount in a week, lol. But if Damage has one showing of superspeed, that's surely enough.

The question then becomes how do we define it. Tagging a speedster isn't really proof (depending on the showing of course) - everyone has done that lol. But outrunning a car/plane ,for example, would be, imo.

oh, i agree 100% that it is appearance dependent. that's part of the issue with prepman-like threads where some new character is dumped into matches and no one knows anything about them. i'm talking here primarily about well established characters with tons and tons of appearances, but who have demonstrated a power or ability only very infrequently. under those conditions, what qualifies as ENOUGH proof of a power or ability?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager 😄

😂

i can only chock it up to an immature chauvintist tendency, fostered by kirk and picard. shrug

with age comes wisdom though. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
THIS is the type of answer i've been looking for this whole damn time! 👆

so you think a single showing is enough to make it valid to use in a vs match? i'm not trying to trap you here. 😂 i think people see this very differently.

btw--thanks for turning me back on to voyager! we're in our THIRD ^%$#@! lockdown in canada, and i've been binging the sh!t out of it. janeway is nowhere near as bad as i remembered--the series is actually excellent. thoroughly enjoying it. 👆

Well I mean, I'll put it this way.

If I pick up a comic tomorrow about a character that, in that first issue, is shown using superspeed, then yes, I'm going to assume that character has superspeed as part of their powerset.

The problem, as others have alluded to, is how to measure that speed once the character is in a vs match. I mean, guys like Deathstroke and Wolverine have what could be classed as a type of superspeed, but there is a world of difference between them and someone like The Flash, or Superman.

There is a huge disconnect in comics though, that I don't think gets addressed enough on here or in the comics themselves (the animated stuff does a better job of it), is when two characters who we know have superspeed fight each other... and yet on the panels we see no motion effects, no blurs, no streaks. Just punches and kicks, even though when we know that these two have speed, they should be using it against each other. Do we infer that Superman and Wonder Woman are using their speed against each other, even if we don't see the typical "effects" that come with such things? Or do we pretend that for some reason, even though they might be trying to smack the head off each other, they're somehow not? I mean, we can say it's CIS, sure, but it seems silly to me.

The animated movies do a better job of it like I said, but it does bother me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager 😄

I think she's badly written at times, including being horribly inconsistent at times (as is Voyager as a whole). That said, she does have some really good scenes though, especially when she's with Seven, the Doctor, or even just having that classic "I'm a Starfleet Captain, I do the right thing and **** you if you expect otherwise" kind of moment. And Kate Mulgrew is a fantastic actress.

Voyager has some great highs, it just has some terrible lows too.

Let's say if we have multiple showings of Hulk using super speed and in the same comic he moves through time stop. Your average speedster ain't doing that which means that if we are ignoring the majority and sticking to the minority here, that ft alone would put Hulk above most.

Then when you factor in the other details like blitzing Gladiator, outpacing rockets/missiles, moving faster than anyone Jack of Hearts ever saw move (and yes, he flies at FTL speeds)...

Originally posted by carver9
Let's say if we have multiple showings of Hulk using super speed and in the same comic he moves through time stop. Your average speedster ain't doing that which means that if we are ignoring the majority and sticking to the minority here, that ft alone would put Hulk above most.

Then when you factor in the other details like blitzing Gladiator, outpacing rockets/missiles, moving faster than anyone Jack of Hearts ever saw move (and yes, he flies at FTL speeds)...

It's like you aren't listening at all. Like, remotely.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I never understood the hate for Janeway. I loved Star Trek Voyager 😄

So did I, the thing is I like it because she is so rigid in her stance of following the star fleet rules and principles (the complete opposite of say Kirk in many ways) but her command crew were all willing to break those rules for her so that she couldn't. Like literally every single member of her command crew broke the prime directive to achieve her and goal for her at some point.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's probably where the "In Character" clause comes into play.

If the character in question has only displayed a basic physical ability(like enhanced speed) a few times over years, but no other material retcons/contradicts it, I do think it is logical to believe they would use it in a forum fight... Assuming it's reasonably in character for them to do so(provided the stipulations of the thread.)

I'll just use Orion as an example:
-Would he use a speed advantage in your typical forum fight against a brick type? Probably not. He's a natural brawler who likes to test his strength and whatnot.
-Would he use a speed advantage if his opponent were preparing to shoot him with a Radion bullet? Probably so. He literally has no other defense, and will die if it hits him.

Point being, even that side of the discussion can be scenario-dependent.

This is exactly how I see it. Like I said in a few other threads. Invulnerable or highly durable bricks rarely use speed when facing someone they don't expect to be able cause them damage. They don't see that they have the need to. It might be hubris, or just arrogance but why waste all that energy when I don't need to.

In the case of Orion (since its come up) vs the team of Parker, Logan and Creed Orion isn't likely to start out using speed and he is going to get tagged. If when that happens it's by an admantium claws etc and they cut him then he is going to start using that speed.

In Character it isn't a go tobpower but when he is in danger it's a power he employs when needed.

That's how I see the powers that aren't often shown being used.

Another example would be Atoma Smasher from the JSA. Albert when he used the codename Nuklon couldn't just grow big and was strong, he could alter his mass and his density. He was never shown to have lost the power and since Infinity Inc all we've seen of it is a few references. Like when BA said he has increased his mass when he went to him before Black Reign. Or when Merlin referred to him as a mass manipulator in JLA.

The real world reason he hasn't used the power of course is that writers haven't bothered to do their research.

A single solitary usenof a power never seen again, that I would say isn't up for grabs, that IMHO is just poor writting