HOTM Hulk vs. This team of Kryptonians

Originally posted by Stoic
Why the laughter? The Green Scar persona had full control of his powers, and full access to his power source. This was stated and shown during the Planet Hulk arc. He simply didn't release it while on Earth, but he was well above Doomsday.

That Hulk's at least universal. Or maybe you weren't arguing he was, just that he has at least universal feats. I don't even have to get to Superman's best to go better than universal, but I don't argue he is universal, so maybe that's the type of argument you were making.

But Superman has better feats, still is under Doomsday. So what exactly is your argument? Do you think Hulk in this is>Thanos cor example?

Also I've pointed above to H1 why this isn't all it's cracked up to be. Including it being a shared feat. As I point out in it, I've seen you say Red She-Hulk had Hulk's power so even shared it's a legit feat for Hulk, not truly shared. I'd like to see evidence of this.

Red Hulk's siphon power until they overheat. Betty went further than she ever could due to the properties of the Wishing Well. What you saw was her latching unto the Hulk's power outage. Have to work, so later.

Originally posted by Stoic
Red Hulk's siphon power until they overheat. Betty went further than she ever could due to the properties of the Wishing Well. What you saw was her latching unto the Hulk's power outage. Have to work, so later.

Well thanks for giving an explanation, but that's like arguing it was all Superman's power because part of his energy was used to power a Daxamite then he went back to normal and the Daxamite got more powerful. So I'm gonna have to say it was a shared feat.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Well thanks for giving an explanation, but that's like arguing it was all Superman's power because part of his energy was used to power a Daxamite then he went back to normal and the Daxamite got more powerful. So I'm gonna have to say it was a shared feat.

No. Betty has a base strength that states that she is a Class 100. She in fact borrowed power from the Hulk. She didn't overheat because of the Wishing Well's magical properties. The Wishing Well did not give her extra powers that she did not have. We know how Red Hulk's powers work. They don't get stronger without first siphoning power. What we saw was her borrowing power from the Hulk and having the ability to ramp up in power as he ramped up.

Based on canon, we know that the Hulk was stated to have infinite strength per the Beyonder. The Green Scar version of the Hulk was able to unlock his potential based on events that occurred during Planet Hulk when he learns how to meditate. He no longer had to became furious to ramp up in power, he could ramp up instantly. This means that he had full control of his power and full access to the dimension that gives him his powers. We were not looking at a Herald level character during HOTM.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Yep, quick response from me. Well here we go.

You can't actually prove that. Given the canon has it as not a normal planet. For one, when talking about other universes, including the Dark Dimension, we see it stated the laws of physics don't necessarily work the same(first narration box, bottom left panel)

https://bit.ly/3p5tsrN

Bottom middle panel talks about WHY the Dark Dimension is dark. Gravity is weaker there, so stars don't exist, and other issues. Like the very fabric of space itself, the "glue of the universe," is porous and weaker.

https://bit.ly/3lsCKf6

I believe it was HulkIsHulk who tried to counter it with this scan--

https://bit.ly/3iRCYun

That the mystics of the Dark Dimension used magick to stabilize gravity. But they merely stabilized it, not increased it. The very same series later has Surfer say matter in that universe seems weaker, which doesn't help any argument that the mages stabilizing gravity debunks the planet being weaker.

https://bit.ly/3v12kuF

This is going to trigger the Hulk stans, but HOTM strongly suggests Hulk died from it. In fact at one point says Hulk is destroyed and reformed. When preparing for when he'll stop holding back, Hulk says "[b]we're gonna FIGHT like NO ONE else has fought BEFORE. And we're gonna DIE. And then we're gonna fight some more."

https://bit.ly/2YwII5z

The emphasis on "we're" is my own, but to highlight. Hulk says they're going to fight, die, and fight more. He does not exclude himself at all.

Hulk later repeats it, saying, "It's just time to FIGHT.....and DIE.....like the MONSTERS we are." Emphasis on "we" again my own.

https://bit.ly/304LkIz

https://bit.ly/3mImBS7

Again, Hulk says they're going to die, and does NOT exclude himself. So we twice have Hulk say "we/we're going to die" and does NOT exclude himself, but Doctor Strange also said nobody will survive, and he didn't exclude Hulk. In fact, Strange says nobody surviving is the end he wants.

https://bit.ly/3luC2xI

https://bit.ly/3mB89Lu

We know people died only to be brought back, like Cho and Dr. Cosimo, and seemingly Urma as well.

https://bit.ly/3AwkBkH

It's specifically stated he's going to be in an eternal cycle of "--fighting, burning and reforming--" so in addition to Hulk twice saying "we're" going to die(not excluding himself) and Strange saying similar, we have someone saying Hulk burns and REFORMS, after we see people who died came back.

https://bit.ly/3AtAuIz

Also, we have it stated the magick from the Wishing Well will resurrect everyone. Again, no exclusion of Hulk.

https://bit.ly/3lx9X8Y

It also seemed to be a shared feat with Red She-Hulk and the comic specifically stated she's as powerful as Hulk at this point.

https://bit.ly/3v4Aiia

Stoic has claimed that it's valid because she had Hulk's power, but I need to see evidence it's valid as a feat solely for Hulk.

But even if it is, Hulk at his strongest destroyed a planet with weak gravity and matter and died from it. Which is less impressive than say Gor destroying GL auto-shields. [/B]

Did you see the Hulk or Betty die? I didn't. I saw Arm‘Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo die though.

Originally posted by Stoic
No. Betty has a base strength that states that she is a Class 100. She in fact borrowed power from the Hulk. She didn't overheat because of the Wishing Well's magical properties. The Wishing Well did not give her extra powers that she did not have. We know how Red Hulk's powers work. They don't get stronger without first siphoning power. What we saw was her borrowing power from the Hulk and having the ability to ramp up in power as he ramped up.

Based on canon, we know that the Hulk was stated to have infinite strength per the Beyonder. The Green Scar version of the Hulk was able to unlock his potential based on events that occurred during Planet Hulk when he learns how to meditate. He no longer had to became furious to ramp up in power, he could ramp up instantly. This means that he had full control of his power and full access to the dimension that gives him his powers. We were not looking at a Herald level character during HOTM.

This isn't a satisfying explanation at all. Unless you're arguing that Hulk wasn't back to normal after being siphoned, but then again you're admitting that Betty has class 100 strength at base. So it still doesn't fit as all Hulk's power by your own argument.

Hypothetically infinite strength isn't the same as actual demonstration of infinite strength. Superman actually has feats like that. Still fewer than the number of Kryptonians here have been able to restrain him, even if temporarily (and the group didn't include Supergirl, who is in this group of Kryptonians, thread starter only said no Superman).

Originally posted by Stoic
Did you see the Hulk or Betty die? I didn't. I saw Arm‘Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo die though.

This does absolutely nothing to counter the argument I made.

Originally posted by Delta1938
This isn't a satisfying explanation at all. Unless you're arguing that Hulk wasn't back to normal after being siphoned, but then again you're admitting that Betty has class 100 strength at base. So it still doesn't fit as all Hulk's power by your own argument.

Hypothetically infinite strength isn't the same as actual demonstration of infinite strength. Superman actually has feats like that. Still fewer than the number of Kryptonians here have been able to restrain him, even if temporarily (and the group didn't include Supergirl, who is in this group of Kryptonians, thread starter only said no Superman).

This does absolutely nothing to counter the argument I made.

I'm not here to satisfy you. You will either accept that which was written, or you won't. The Green Scar had no upper limit to his strength. Before even entering the Dark Dimension, he beat 2 characters that were 1000x more powerful than Savage Hulk. Betty as a Red Hulk did what Red Hulks do. It isn't up to me to convince you on how a Red Hulk's power set works. It's been explicitly explained in comics. That group of Kryptonians had clear limits, which became evident the moment that it took more than one to subdue Doomsday. This version of the Hulk was well above that weight class.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm not here to satisfy you. You will either accept that which was written, or you won't. The Green Scar had no upper limit to his strength. Before even entering the Dark Dimension, he beat 2 characters that were 1000x more powerful than Savage Hulk. Betty as a Red Hulk did what Red Hulks do. It isn't up to me to convince you on how a Red Hulk's power set works. It's been explicitly explained in comics. That group of Kryptonians had clear limits, which became evident the moment that it took more than one to subdue Doomsday. This version of the Hulk was well above that weight class.

You saying you're not here to satisfy me doesn't change the fact that even by your own argument, you're wrong. You yourself said that Red She-Hulk is at base class 100, so by default even if she had Hulk's power added it's not what you're trying to sell.

And you've just proven your double standards. You dismiss all the statements I provided to support Hulk dying by going, "Show him dying " yet you say he beat two characters 1,000 times more powerful. Prove they were 1,000 times more powerful. All you have is ONE statement from Bi-Beast, which could be hyperbole. I'm not arguing it is, simply pointing out it could be. If you accept blindly that Wendigo and Bi-Beast were 1,000 times more powerful based on one potentially hyperbolic statement, you must concede Hulk died when the planet was destroyed based on the multiple statements, including stronger statements.

You say they had clear limits because of fighting Doomsday, when Superman has better feats than Hulk yet still usually isn't as strong. So you're making a circular argument. Unless you're going to be a hypocrite and keep with Hulk beat the 2 of his enemies amped 1,000 times but didn't die in HOTM, then Gor has done better than Hulk by busting the GL auto-shields which is better than busting that planet even ignoring gravity and matter are weaker in the Dark Dimension. I don't think all these Kryptonians are that strong, but the difference isn't nearly great enough to matter with half the ones here.

Rogol Zaar had to destroy planets at their core. I mean, if we're going the route of attempting to invalidate the Hulk's strength. True fact* Most of the time, the Hulk is drastically holding back. That's been his story from the beginning. Does that give us a pass to claim that he's weak? What about his highs, or his highest? He's drastically weaker when he holds back, which is mostly always. He is powered by the Gammaverse, which is being written about these days. The One Below All is at minimum universal, or even more powerful than that. I highly doubt that it's a weakling within said universe. The Green Scar and all other Hulk mutates are powered by that place.

Originally posted by Stoic
Rogol Zaar had to destroy planets at their core. I mean, if we're going the route of attempting to invalidate the Hulk's strength. True fact* Most of the time, the Hulk is drastically holding back. That's been his story from the beginning. Does that give us a pass to claim that he's weak? What about his highs, or his highest? He's drastically weaker when he holds back, which is mostly always. He is powered by the Gammaverse, which is being written about these days. The One Below All is at minimum universal, or even more powerful than that. I highly doubt that it's a weakling within said universe. The Green Scar and all other Hulk mutates are powered by that place.

The issue here is this is a specific version of Hulk, and I'm arguing what happened in the very comics. He wasn't holding back here(whole point of the Wishing Well having everyone come back from the dead), and unless things were changed and I'm unaware of it(which is certainly possible, but if it has must be shown), gravity and matter were weaker in the Dark Dimension.

If we're going to go by highs, Superman has surpassed universal feats without being at his most powerful. Fewer than these Kryptonians(and not including Supergirl who is here against Hulk) have restrained him, as I've said before.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You saying you're not here to satisfy me doesn't change the fact that even by your own argument, you're wrong. You yourself said that Red She-Hulk is at base class 100, so by default even if she had Hulk's power added it's not what you're trying to sell.

And you've just proven your double standards. You dismiss all the statements I provided to support Hulk dying by going, "Show him dying " yet you say he beat two characters 1,000 times more powerful. Prove they were 1,000 times more powerful. All you have is ONE statement from Bi-Beast, which could be hyperbole. I'm not arguing it is, simply pointing out it could be. If you accept blindly that Wendigo and Bi-Beast were 1,000 times more powerful based on one potentially hyperbolic statement, you must concede Hulk died when the planet was destroyed based on the multiple statements, including stronger statements.

You say they had clear limits because of fighting Doomsday, when Superman has better feats than Hulk yet still usually isn't as strong. So you're making a circular argument. Unless you're going to be a hypocrite and keep with Hulk beat the 2 of his enemies amped 1,000 times but didn't die in HOTM, then Gor has done better than Hulk by busting the GL auto-shields which is better than busting that planet even ignoring gravity and matter are weaker in the Dark Dimension. I don't think all these Kryptonians are that strong, but the difference isn't nearly great enough to matter with half the ones here.

Back it up my guy. Don't assume to tell me what I'm thinking. You're wrong. Betty being a Class 100 has no bearing on how her powers work. For instance, if Betty fought Rampage, she'd begin at her base Class 100 strength lvl. While actively using her powers, she would buff herself by adding Rampages strength to her own. That does not mean that Betty at base is as strong as Rampage, or weaker than Rampage, just that it is how her abilities work. Continue ignoring my words on this, and you'll be sailing alone.

Double standards? Prove that Superman hit with the force of a megaverse that didn't actually destroy the planet that the World Forger stood on. The words were there, the increase in stature was there. Respect goes both ways.

You're entire view on this seems to be filled with biased perspectives. The book described them to be 1000x more powerful than normal. I'm not going on a gut feeling here. It is what was stated, and your inability to agree with what was written is actually the questionable element of this discussion. You don't get to make the rules, bend them in your favor, and pretend to play dumb when the evidence has been written into canon. The Green Scar had no upper limit to his strength level. Canon facts.

Originally posted by Stoic
Back it up my guy. Don't assume to tell me what I'm thinking. You're wrong. Betty being a Class 100 has no bearing on how her powers work. For instance, if Betty fought Rampage, she'd begin at her base Class 100 strength lvl. While actively using her powers, she would buff herself by adding Rampages strength to her own. That does not mean that Betty at base is as strong as Rampage, or weaker than Rampage, just that it is how her abilities work. Continue ignoring my words on this, and you'll be sailing alone.

Double standards? Prove that Superman hit with the force of a megaverse that didn't actually destroy the planet that the World Forger stood on. The words were there, the increase in stature was there. Respect goes both ways.

You're entire view on this seems to be filled with biased perspectives. The book described them to be 1000x more powerful than normal. I'm not going on a gut feeling here. It is what was stated, and your inability to agree with what was written is actually the questionable element of this discussion. You don't get to make the rules, bend them in your favor, and pretend to play dumb when the evidence has been written into canon. The Green Scar had no upper limit to his strength level. Canon facts.

Even going by this description, you're saying she was as strong as Hulk. By the way you were previously arguing, it looked like you're saying she had her base strength then siphoned Hulk. Now? You're saying she's made equal to Hulk, which is worse. Your argument requires the assumption he was strong enough to do it on his own.

I don't need to prove anything. You're doing my job for me by proving me right. Your assumption that Bi-Beast and Wendigo were 1,000 times more powerful than normal is based on ONE statement, which could be hyperbole. If you said "as much as 1,000 times" or "1,000 times if we take it literally " or something like that, you'd be acknowledging it's potentially hyperbole. If I say, "I feel like a million bucks" am I literally made up of $1 million? And yes it's a BLATANT double standard. You're arguing it based off only one statement but telling me to prove Hulk died without acknowledging multiple statements. The case is far stronger that Hulk died than Bi-Beast and Wendigo were literally 1,000 times more powerful.

I'm not making and bending rules, I'm pointing out what is in the comics. You're ignoring it.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Even going by this description, you're saying she was as strong as Hulk. By the way you were previously arguing, it looked like you're saying she had her base strength then siphoned Hulk. Now? You're saying she's made equal to Hulk, which is worse. Your argument requires the assumption he was strong enough to do it on his own.

I don't need to prove anything. You're doing my job for me by proving me right. Your assumption that Bi-Beast and Wendigo were 1,000 times more powerful than normal is based on ONE statement, which could be hyperbole. If you said "as much as 1,000 times" or "1,000 times if we take it literally " or something like that, you'd be acknowledging it's potentially hyperbole. If I say, "I feel like a million bucks" am I literally made up of $1 million? And yes it's a BLATANT double standard. You're arguing it based off only one statement but telling me to prove Hulk died without acknowledging multiple statements. The case is far stronger that Hulk died than Bi-Beast and Wendigo were literally 1,000 times more powerful.

I'm not making and bending rules, I'm pointing out what is in the comics. You're ignoring it.

Betty is listed a Class 100 at base unamplified strength. She was not as strong as the Hulk who is also listed as a Class 100. They fought, and he was clearly stronger than she was. Not all Class 100s are the same strength. Her powers allow for her to siphon power from her opponents, adding that power to her base. Minus the power siphoned from the Hulk, her true base would've been far less than what was demonstrated after borrowing power from the Hulk during the battle in the Dark Dimension.

Was the punch that clobbered World Forger hyperbole as well? I read it and despite having mixed thoughts about the scene, I have no choice but to go with what was written. They gave a hard number in concern to the level of amplification. Any opinion outside of what was written holds zero weight. Neither the Hulk, or Betty died on panel from what was visibly illustrated. The only ones that I saw die were Bi-Beast, Arm’Cheddon, Wendigo, and the creatures of the Dark Dimension. Anything else is the imagination. You can't just fabricate things, and then abruptly raise you arms claiming how right you are, while pretending to know people so well bruh.

Originally posted by Stoic
Betty is listed a Class 100 at base unamplified strength. She was not as strong as the Hulk who is also listed as a Class 100. They fought, and he was clearly stronger than she was. Not all Class 100s are the same strength. Her powers allow for her to siphon power from her opponents, adding that power to her base. Minus the power siphoned from the Hulk, her true base would've been far less than what was demonstrated after borrowing power from the Hulk during the battle in the Dark Dimension.

Was the punch that clobbered World Forger hyperbole as well? I read it and despite having mixed thoughts about the scene, I have no choice but to go with what was written. They gave a hard number in concern to the level of amplification. Any opinion outside of what was written holds zero weight. Neither the Hulk, or Betty died on panel from what was visibly illustrated. The only ones that I saw die were Bi-Beast, Arm’Cheddon, Wendigo, and the creatures of the Dark Dimension. Anything else is the imagination. You can't just fabricate things, and then abruptly raise you arms claiming how right you are, while pretending to know people so well bruh.

So first you make me think Betty was siphoning Hulk, then your argument made it seem like she just adapts, like Guy Gardener's Vuldarian powers, now you go back to saying she's siphoning. Which is it? But it doesn't matter that much. Your argument about not all class 100s are the same means little given the circumstances of the Dark Dimension, that planet wasn't a big deal. You're assuming her base would be far less, unless you are accounting for the planet being weak.

I've only seen scans on WF so this argument isn't getting you anywhere. I'm not going to form an opinion without reading it all.

But to explain to you, it's going to depend on what actually was written. Take Orion containing the Oblivion Bomb. That storyline said so many times it was capable of destroying the universe. Metron said so twice after two different analysis(one he got a much better look at it), Black Vykin said so as a second opinion, the alien collective who created it said it would, and IIRC both narration and Odin said it would. So that's abundantly clear what the writer intent was. Bi-Beast giving an off hand comment? That's not definitive proof. That's a very low bar to say that definitively proves it. You saying "any opinion outside what was written holds zero weight" doesn't change that. All you can prove from that one statement is they were stronger, and no amount of wishful thinking makes it definitive proof. I'm not even saying it's unquestionably hyperbole, but you have no argument claiming it's 100% fact off ONE statement written that way. Unless you have something to show Bi-Beast is some great analytical mind or something.

I gave an actual argument for Hulk dying there. You just say I'm wrong. To be blunt you're a hypocrite to say that ONE statement from Bi-Beast proves you right but ignore the MULTIPLE statements I provided from the comic that supports Hulk dying. You have given NOTHING of value to say otherwise. I can just as easily demand you show me Hulk survived, but the difference is I have an actual argument based on what the very storyline showed.

I get it. You don't understand how a Red Hulk's powers work. Brush up on that. The rest of what you said was garbage. Did you see them die? No? So your evidence is weak. They were amped 1000x their base. This version of the Hulk had unlimited strength that he could call on, on the fly. The end.

Lol. Poor delta, getting owned every day and caught in lies. Smh.

I got more. It's for all of those that have attempted to invalidate the matter in the Dark Dimension.

As we know, the Dark Dimension was stated to be weaker than the main 616 universe. We have no idea how much weaker, but we can be sure that it's more durable than paper. So instead of using that as a basis to gauge things, how about we go by the showing of a Savage Hulk level character hitting the Green Scar with all of their might? Their assaults bounced off of him and were barely even noticed while he hasn't even begun to really ramp up. At that point, they'd probably have to 1000x more powerful before becoming a minor challenge. If you know where I'm going with this. He then turns around and within seconds becomes even more powerful. The Savage Hulk has never defeated either of these opponents without help. This shows us roughly how powerful he was while still drastically holding back.

Hulk eats them.

Originally posted by Stoic
As we know, the Dark Dimension was stated to be weaker than the main 616 universe. We have no idea how much weaker, but we can be sure that it's more durable than paper. So instead of using that as a basis to gauge things, how about we go by the showing of a Savage Hulk level character hitting the Green Scar with all of their might? Their assaults bounced off of him and were barely even noticed while he hasn't even begun to really ramp up. At that point, they'd probably have to 1000x more powerful before becoming a minor challenge. If you know where I'm going with this. He then turns around and within seconds becomes even more powerful. The Savage Hulk has never defeated either of these opponents without help. This shows us roughly how powerful he was while still drastically holding back.

How does that refute the Dark Dimension being more fragile?