How strong is Hercules really by comparison.........

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cain's history shows us he's always felt conflicted and trying to find his own way.

The hero part of him, X-Men/Excalibur, was still there, despite embracing Cyttorak again.

How do we know that?

He could've very damn well wrecked the mansion and finish the job Hulk started. Instead, he chose to leave and didn't harm a soul - other than beating the living shit out of Banner, of course.

So before Xavier said anything, he was going all out against a holding back Hulk? That's what I am getting from your post.

He was "holding back" as much as Hulk did.

Which was a non-existent degree of holding back - Hulk had the same problem with Cain as with Wolverine - he wasn't powerful enough to kill either of them.

They were, however, concerned about everyone around them. That's what saved Hulk's hide.

At least you're trying. Tony went to Sentry because he knew Sentry was the only being on the planet that stood a chance against this Hulk. He didn't go to Juggernaut because Juggernaut just can't stack up to the power Hulk was dishing out in this arc. He can't even beat Merged Hulk without sneak attacking him. In a face to face encounter, Merged Hulk 2 pieced him.

Originally posted by carver9
At least you're trying. Tony went to Sentry because he knew Sentry was the only being on the planet that stood a chance against this Hulk.

...

Juggernaut was severely depowered at the time when Stark contacted Sentry, you fucking imbecile 😂

Originally posted by carver9
He can't even beat Merged Hulk without sneak attacking him.

Legit full fight scene and Cain didn't even need his armor to assrape Prof Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Merged Hulk 2 pieced him.

Surprised him with a cheapshot in a non-fight scenario, which was admitted in Hulk's own letter column to mean nothing?

K.

Hulk and Sentry fought at the end and I feel confident that with Tony resources, heck any of the heros, they knew of Cain existence. Even after his fight with Cain, it was marked that no one on Earth could stop Hulk.

Lol, Merged Hulk 2 pieced him. Their first fight, Merged Hulk admitted he held back and fought sloppy. When he got serious, Cain got 2 pieced. How in the heck is he suppose to be equal or competitive with a serious Hulk when he is getting 2 pieced by an amateur Hulk?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He was "holding back" as much as Hulk did.

Which was a non-existent degree of holding back - Hulk had the same problem with Cain as with Wolverine - he wasn't powerful enough to kill either of them.

They were, however, concerned about everyone around them. That's what saved Hulk's hide.

Wasn't it retconned that Cho was wrong about hulk holding back

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He was "holding back" as much as Hulk did.

Which was a non-existent degree of holding back - Hulk had the same problem with Cain as with Wolverine - he wasn't powerful enough to kill either of them.

They were, however, concerned about everyone around them. That's what saved Hulk's hide.

How was it to a non-existant degree when we actually saw the Hulk's increase in power when he nearly sinks the Eastern Seaboard? The Hulk's durability, healing factor, leaping speeds, and his other innate abilities increased with his strength level. We need to address the myth that anger was the catalyst, or sole catalyst for the reason that the Green Scar was the most powerful version of the Hulk to date. During his brief stay on Sakaar during the Planet Hulk saga, he learned how to harness his full potential by meditating, which is why he was able to raise and lower his power levels at will.

Are you literally arguing that the Hulk was at the same levels that he was at when he went to the Dark Dimension, as he was when he confronted the X-Men/X-Teams? The levels that he attained at the end of WW Hulk alone, eclipsed his power levels against Cain. He was holding back, while Cain was back to his classic levels.

Originally posted by Stoic
Except for the fact that he said said that he was holding back the entire time. You can't ignore context whenever you want to. Bruce held back when he faced Cain. In order for him to have put him down, he would have had to increase his power to levels that would have killed many innocents. This isn't something that is hard to understand.

But the point being, when he faced Juggy, at WWH levels, it wasn't enough.

The fight against Chaos King, they didn't say they need Juggernaut, lmao, they needed the Hulk...

https://ibb.co/8dvvLCg
https://ibb.co/LZQVLbS

Lmao, the desperation here

I sent Raz a link to this thread and told him it was time to finally pull the plug.

Tbf, the debating from Carver has been like KMC circa 2004.

"DC comics says 'this is a job for Superman', so this means he's the best!!!!"

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the point being, when he faced Juggy, at WWH levels, it wasn't enough.

WWH was the strongest version of Hulk up to that point(carver himself has "reminded" us of this many, many times over the years)... And while he may not have been willing to kill his opponents, he was certainly willing to use as much strength as needed in order to KO/incapacitate his opponents.

So with the above facts taken into account, the question becomes: why didn't Hulk KO/incapacitate Juggernaut, like he KO'd/incapacitated SO many others? The logical answer: he didn't, because he couldn't... At least not in a timely manner.

Does this mean Juggy could have definitively beaten WWH? Not necessarily. It just means that Juggy was strong enough to match(or even slightly exceed) Hulk's strength in that moment.

I really don't see what the problem is here?

👆 that was what I was saying nearly 24 pages and three weeks ago, lmao:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus, drastically holding back or no, he was still angrier than he had ever been. So any preior Hulk incarnations, he was stronger. They literally spelled it out:

Holding back his punches, doesn't mean he's holding back his speed or durability, and if he could, he would use his strength to end fights quickly.

As seen with She-Hulk:
https://i.imgur.com/RBT1hlo.jpg

Colossus:
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/hulk16.jpg

Talbot:
https://i.imgur.com/9yWXzg4.jpeg

And Cain, lol:
https://i.imgur.com/k0bTjPT.jpg

He wasn't holding back, when trying to end fights quickly.

Yet, when Cain was powered back up by Cytorrak - WWH was unable to put hum down.

His 'holding back', was to protect the little people.

The thing that you didn't seem to get 24 pages and 3 weeks ago, was that the characters that he so easily dispatched did not have a toughness enchantment added to their super strength. In order for the Hulk to put down Cain, he would've had to output the kind of power that would have possibly killed innocent lives. Lives that had nothing to do with his primary agenda. He literally says that he held back. We actually see him exceed the power levels that he was at when he went to arrest Xavier, we actually read Wolverine stating that he was tougher than before, we even see that when he was in the Dark Dimension that he grew powerful enough to ignore assaults by Savage Hulk level opponents, and based upon Planet Hulk, we know that he could control his strength levels by simply meditating and willing himself to become more powerful.

When he fought Cain, he limited himself to remain on that level, which also limited his toughness and other abilities. The argument was that Cain was seemingly undermining the mansions foundation alone,despite the fact that he was pushing up against the Hulk who himself alone nearly sank far more than a mansions foundation. No one wants to answer the question though. Where are Cain's best strength feats? Or, they want to ignore that it literally took him years to get free of an ancient temple collapsing on him.

Is that me lowballing Cain? Not in my opinion. Lowballing Cain is bringing up the time when he was burned by the flames of an old fashioned chandelier. I was just pointing out that he was the weakest based upon his on panel actual lifting feats.

Originally posted by Stoic
The thing that you didn't seem to get 24 pages and 3 weeks ago, was that the characters that he so easily dispatched did not have a toughness enchantment added to their super strength. In order for the Hulk to put down Cain, he would've had to output the kind of power that would have possibly killed innocent lives. Lives that had nothing to do with his primary agenda. He literally says that he held back. We actually see him exceed the power levels that he was at when he went to arrest Xavier, we actually read Wolverine stating that he was tougher than before, we even see that when he was in the Dark Dimension that he grew powerful enough to ignore assaults by Savage Hulk level opponents, and based upon Planet Hulk, we know that he could control his strength levels by simply meditating and willing himself to become more powerful.

When he fought Cain, he limited himself to remain on that level, which also limited his toughness and other abilities. The argument was that Cain was seemingly undermining the mansions foundation alone,despite the fact that he was pushing up against the Hulk who himself alone nearly sank far more than a mansions foundation. No one wants to answer the question though. Where are Cain's best strength feats? Or, they want to ignore that it literally took him years to get free of an ancient temple collapsing on him.

Is that me lowballing Cain? Not in my opinion. Lowballing Cain is bringing up the time when he was burned by the flames of an old fashioned chandelier. I was just pointing out that he was the weakest based upon his on panel actual lifting feats.

But you have zero proof on this. We saw clearly that WWH was able to damage full powered Juggy (he dented his helmet). So why would breaking his arms (as an example) endanger innocent lives?

I mean, yes, he has a toughness enchantment - but WWH was able to overcome it.

There is a popular theory that Juggernaut can still register pain at times... same as he eats, drinks, sleeps and breathes... even though he doesn't really need to do any of these, when he is at the full [standard, non-Trion, non-8th day] power level.

Probably because he subconsciously refused to be another one of Cyttorak's puppets and clinged to his human side.

Osborn convinced Sentry to do the same thing (eat McDonalds', take a shower, etc.) and it helped him to stay in control.

I mean... this, technically, is the same Juggernaut version that assraped Thor and took the godblast with no injury:

The Godblast scene (Thor had to resort to BFR, as he was shitting his pants, as usual):

https://imgur.com/a/RJjPU

Or Thor is < Nightcrawler.

Maybe it's a magical immunity? But yeah, iffy power levels. The difference here is, it was the exact same book/writer who showed full powered Juggy being hurt by WWH. So Stoic's assertion that WWH would have to drastically ramp his power levels up to break his arms (to the point that innocents would die) is false.

But then again, that in itself is something we COULD agree on - that WWH, as he was shown in the entire storyline (up until his WB-sinking-the-East-Coast phase) is < Juggy.

What I'm saying is that making Juggs grunt in pain does not necessarily mean one is capable of actually wounding him. There is not a single drop of blood indicating real damage. It's almost akin to Superman grunting when he's lifting a truck. Meaningless. Superman won't tire from that, just as Juggernaut won't, as seen in the next panel.

Same cannot be said for the Hulk, who was spewing out blood from his mouth and nose after each strike, despite his durability being higher than ever - as noted by Wolverine himself, who has fought almost every version of Hulk - including (but not limited to) Savage, Fixit, Professor, Bannerless and more.

Stoic is just funny with that hilarious belief of his that Green Scar could tap into WBH energy reserves any time he wanted.

He couldn't, he didn't even know he had it in him... it took a betrayal from Miek, Rick getting stabbed and realizing his whole revenge-quest was all for nothing that made him go World Breaker.

He wasn't able to control it in any way. Not during the original WWH storyline, at least.

If anyone could draw on more power, it was Juggernaut, actually... admitted by Hulk's creative team themselves in the past in their own letter column... and even if Hulk was somehow able to bypass his durability, then it's a damn good thing Juggs was shown to be capable of extremely fast regeneration... or fighting as a bare skeleton while not even at full power.

Banner knew BFR was his only option, we see him advising Skaar to use the same tactic later.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What I'm saying is that making Juggs grunt in pain does not necessarily mean one is capable of actually wounding him. There is not a single drop of blood indicating real damage. It's almost akin to Superman grunting when he's lifting a truck. Meaningless. Superman won't tire from that, just as Juggernaut won't, as seen in the next panel.

Same cannot be said for the Hulk, who was spewing out blood from his mouth and nose after each strike, despite his durability being higher than ever - as noted by Wolverine himself, who has fought almost every version of Hulk - including (but not limited to) Savage, Fixit, Professor, Bannerless and more.

Stoic is just funny with that hilarious belief of his that Green Scar could tap into WBH energy reserves any time he wanted.

He couldn't, he didn't even know he had it in him... it took a betrayal from Miek, Rick getting stabbed and realizing his whole revenge-quest was all for nothing that made him go World Breaker.

He wasn't able to control it in any way. Not during the original WWH storyline, at least.

If anyone could draw on more power, it was Juggernaut, actually... admitted by Hulk's creative team themselves in the past in their own letter column... and even if Hulk was somehow able to bypass his durability, then it's a damn good thing Juggs was shown to be capable of extremely fast regeneration... or fighting as a bare skeleton while not even at full power.

Banner knew BFR was his only option, we see him advising Skaar to use the same tactic later.

👆

I was going off th dented helmet - we know the helmet is magical and part of his invulnerability enchantment (hence why the X-Men need to get it off etc).