Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This goes back to the Aquarian/Goku thread.If Cyclops has statements saying he can bust moons apart (Carver's example), do we accept it? No. Why? Because we have plenty of statements proving otherwise.
If Manhattan has statements saying XYZ, do we accept it? That depends.
If we have feats proving otherwise, then no.
If we have no feats proving otherwise.....why not?
Thus, the onus is on Carv/the person disputing the statement, to provide scans showing why the statement is false.
Superman claimed Bibbo could knock him out without him needing to fake it. We have no proof Bibbo can't knock Superman out, so it must be true.
Essentially your logic here.
Or Spidey compared Cap's punch to an A-bomb. Never tried to punch a town, so we can't assume he can't, amiright?
Concerning the statements and feats argument. I think this, like many others, is a case by case situation.
For example, if you say statements combined with feats can be accepted, then I can tell you by that logic, Superman has infinite speed(1.https://ibb.co/mvwwLxp 2.https://imgur.com/a/nOeX9), which we know that definitely isnt true
Only considering feats? As many of us pointed out, TOAA, Living Tribunal, The Presence etc, all of them dont have lifting feats that can match Batman's. But does that mean Batman will beat them in a lifting contest? Hell,no
Only considering statements?..... I mean, you have Superman is the most powerful being in the Omniverse..........
All in all, I think look at the character that we argue established history is a relatively good way to gauge.
I dont think Deathstroke has nanosecond level speed or is a legitimate speedster despite some statements and feats supporting that. Because we know this character history, we know that he, by all odds, isnt a speedster like Wonder Woman or Flash
On the other hand, we dont need combat feats for beings, lets say, Imperiex Prime. I mean, I dont think anyone would honestly argue Flash will make Imperiex Prime a statue and use Multiverse-Shattering energy to punch him down. Because we know that Imperiex Prime isnt a character that requires these feats. His established history tells us we should treat him as somethig like TOAA, Living Tribunal, The Presence, not someone like Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern etc
Originally posted by Galan007👆
In Manhattan's case, I don't see an issue with using statements, as nothing on panel explicitly contradicts them.Mxy stated that Manhattan was more power than himself, and Superman reiterated this in following issues. Luthor then stated that Manhattan was above ALL beings that he had encountered up to that point(which would include Mxy.) Manhattan's power was then used to stalemate Perpetua. Etc.
Personally, I take those statements as fact. And since there are only a scant few characters in Marvel that I'd place =/> Mxy, there are even less that I'd put above Manhattan.
Not only that, but Mxy specifically couldn't undo Manhattan's warping:
As for me, I wouldn't even say that I place a scant few above Mxy, maybe just ONE. And that's a maybe in a 'well functioning system' which Mxy is not too fond of, if you catch my drift.
There isn't a single thread on this entire website where cdtm's posts are worth a "to view post post click here" effort.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZAt this point I can honestly say it's not even worth putting effort in trying to untie DC's overarching hierarchy, since it's prone to be retconned/changed again.
I don”t think Phil is disputing that there are various DC characters above Mxy. The Source, Lucifer, Michael, Perpetua, Manhattan, Mandrakk, Thought Robot, GEB, etc.
Maybe in a few years when it all settles down and they either go bankrupt or start writing good stories again.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But do those characters have feats that contradict said statements? That's where it gets murky.
WDYM by this? The only statements I referenced in my post were the ones putting LT at the top of the cosmic hierarchy, and the ones implying the cosmic hierarchy is directly correlated to the power of each character. These statements are not contradicted by feats.
Wasn”t sure if you were disagreeing with the validity of the LT scaling or just “feats that contradict statements” in general.
I think something that has to be recognized here is the fallibility of feats, especially when they place “hard limits” on a character that has, on numerous occasions, been given conflicting statements and feats.
For example, some people try to cap LT at “multi-universal” level because he was slain by the Beyonders, who later on were obliterated by a blast equivalent to the destruction of ~40,000 universes. This completely ignores the Beyonder’s slaughtering an “endless number of gods”, including an infinity of Celestials and abstracts, as well as the LT performing better against the Beyonders than said infinity of Celestials/Abstracts. Furthermore, the LT has plenty of statements, feats and scaling from lesser entities/artifacts that would place him in the Multiversal tier, if not well beyond.
EDIT: Regarding the idea of LT scaling above the absolute top end feats of the UN and any characters lesser in the hierarchy: we apply the same logic to the statements placing Perpetua/Manhattan above the top end feats of Mxy (such as WF), despite them similarly having a few “lowball” feats that would place them far below the levels demonstrated by Mxy in WF.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
WDYM by this? The only statements I referenced in my post were the ones putting LT at the top of the cosmic hierarchy, and the ones implying the cosmic hierarchy is directly correlated to the power of each character. These statements are not contradicted by feats.Wasn”t sure if you were disagreeing with the validity of the LT scaling or just “feats that contradict statements” in general.
I think something that has to be recognized here is the fallibility of feats, especially when they place “hard limits” on a character that has, on numerous occasions, been given conflicting statements and feats.
For example, some people try to cap LT at “multi-universal” level because he was slain by the Beyonders, who later on were obliterated by a blast equivalent to the destruction of ~40,000 universes. This completely ignores the Beyonder’s slaughtering an “endless number of gods”, including an infinity of Celestials and abstracts, as well as the LT performing better against the Beyonders than said infinity of Celestials/Abstracts. Furthermore, the LT has plenty of statements, feats and scaling from lesser entities/artifacts that would place him in the Multiversal tier, if not well beyond.
EDIT: Regarding the idea of LT scaling above the absolute top end feats of the UN and any characters lesser in the hierarchy: we apply the same logic to the statements placing Perpetua/Manhattan above the top end feats of Mxy (such as WF), despite them similarly having a few “lowball” feats that would place them far below the levels demonstrated by Mxy in WF.
Mine was a general post on why statements alone can be useful in the absence of feats
Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose the most impressive aspect of Manhattan's power comes in the way of secondary sources and whatnot.-Mxy stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself.
-Superman reiterating that Manhattan > Mxy.
-Luthor stating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered.
-Manhattan's power being used to stalemate Perpetua.
etc.As I've said before: if you take the above at face value, then the list of beings in Marvel's history who could conceivably defeat Manhattan is very short.
Originally posted by MrMind
it's pointless to even compare current marvel to dc as far as cosmic and abstract concernedthey are not on the same level anymore
While I think there”s really not much room for debate regarding the Marvel top tier cosmics vs DC’s absolute top tier cosmics such as GEB, Lucifer, Michael, the Source, The Hands, etc, I think there”s room to debate regarding Marvel top tier cosmics vs characters such as Mxy, the Brothers Three, Manhattan, Perpetua etc.
Originally posted by Philosophía
👆Not only that, but Mxy specifically couldn't undo Manhattan's warping:
As for me, I wouldn't even say that I place a scant few above Mxy, maybe just ONE. And that's a maybe in a 'well functioning system' which Mxy is not too fond of, if you catch my drift.
This posting shows what level Mxy would likely be within the confines of Marvel space. He most certainly would not be able to challenge TOAA. I believe that he'd be placed within the level of a Cube beings (which have varying degrees of power). LT would actually have authority over him as well. Comparing his high level destructive feats to the multitude of high level destructive feats that exist in Marvel, has at times left me scratching my head. Not all, but some.
Mxy has glaring weaknesses as well. Jor El exploited one, and sent/BFR'd him to a Null, or Void universe. Jor El is a mortal like Reed Richards is when compared to the whacked out cosmic powerhouses out there. Scuse the rant, but I just wanted to share that point of view.
No I'm not forgetting his power stunts. Just saying that tearing the fabric of space would have zero effect on more characters than some might at first expect.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Hmmm, I personally wouldnt consider The Hands as DC absolute top tier cosmicsAfter all, Perpetua is one, and the most fearsome one, of The Hands IIRC
Well, The Hands pretty much oneshotted Perpetua + her armies AND erected the Source Wall with a single “blast of energy” from across the Omniverse, in the form of the cosmic raptor. So the Hands as a group are >>>> Perpetua.
Also, Snyder in an interview states that Perpetua is weaker than the Hands we see in Death Metal individually, because they had followed their function and achieved an “ascended” state as a result, while Perpetua did not.