Superman vs. Gladiator, Hyperion, Sentry and Count Nefaria

Originally posted by Booya_69
C list characters get c list treatment. We all know gladiator jobs alot, but we know where he stands in terms of power. We seen superman go all out against mongul in a fight that went from planet to planet. Impressive display of power no doubt, but superman admitted he couldn't defeat him.

Nope gladiator hasn't defeated darksied. Can you guess who's strength is greatly respected by Thanos? You guessed it buddy. Gladiator is right. Gladiator had a prolonged fight against Hyperion and they were fighting in nanoseconds. He's also crossed a galaxy in a blink of an eye. We know he's super fast by comic standards given that red and blue blur he leaves as he flies. Just like Superman.
Your stuck on lowballling him. Wasnt annihulk an amped version?

Hyperion freaking stopped two planets from colliding with each other at high speeds. He took down multiple builders and gained respect from thor. I'm sure his combat skills are adequate enough to engage superman.
Does Sentry need expert combat skills when he can give himself new super powers? Talking him out of fight is not a given either. You can't just dismiss it as an absolute (I addressed this earlier)

Honestly I haven't even picked a winner, but to act like this a cakewalk for clark is ridiculous.

Nobody said it is. But these aren't really in his league anymore given his feats in recent years.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well it was filled with complex equipment so it probably wouldn't make a significant difference. Suppose I could have included a hollowness factor.

Possibly, but again recall this was filled with Reed's technology. Also the speed estimate was probably a low end as it was keeping up with Surfer and chasing him all over the world.

Disagree, because:

1. The dialogue directly states that Ben drove it into the stratosphere before it could right itself, not that it propelled itself there

2. Earlier, it was pursuing Surfer he couldn't escape it despite his maneuvering. So if its engines were still fully functional it would be able to correct its course much faster than that.

If you insist. Just be warned, I have a lot of them.

The original version of the calc I did for this was considered invalid, so let me just quickly do a much more conservative version. If we use the weight of a RL Kirov-class battlecruiser (which should be a huge lowball since an interstellar spaceship would be far larger), the weight is 24,300 tons. In order to "anchor" a spaceship, you have to keep it from taking off. At minimum, the ships engines have to be powerful enough to propel it to escape velocity. So the kinetic energy comes out to 1.524096e+15 joules, which is equivalent to lifting over 170 billion tons 1 meter upwards in Earth's surface gravity.

Of course I know that, but I do the best with what I have, and we have established several rules for scaling (for example, you can't scale the curvature of the Earth or another planet from a shot within the atmosphere, because that is almost always distorted).

All missiles are largely hollow (filled with gases for propulsion). Some electronics inside but not made of iron and mostly insignificant to the total weight.

If the missile is going super fast (chasing Surfer) then a quick deflection would take it off its course by a long distance. The comic clearly shows Ben deflecting the missile and the comic states this as well.
Also You claim that the missile should correct itself before reaching the stratosphere but we have several possibilities for it not
1. Ben gave it enough angular momentum that it would take the missile 1 second or more to cancel it out. By that time the missile is in the stratosphere.
2. Ben disrupted the system and would take more 1 second or more to regain control.
3. Writer wasn't thinking about it. Happens all the time in comics. This is the most logical explanation due to writers intent.

The comic stated anchoring a battle cruiser (boat), not a spaceship lol. Spaceships are not ever anchored in fiction (why?). Plus even so then spaceships use antigravity to escape a planet and space warp to travel. Propulsion strength is unknown due to those factors.

I don't see how flying from planet to planet and destroying some planets is a galaxy level feat in any way. It's a multi-planet level feat, just based on the description.

Originally posted by h1a8
All missiles are largely hollow (filled with gases for propulsion). Some electronics inside but not made of iron and mostly insignificant to the total weight.

Actually, most missiles use liquid or solid fuel. Missiles with gaseous fuel, like you're suggesting, don't even seem to be a thing at all, as far as some brief research leads me to believe.

https://www.quora.com/Do-modern-missiles-use-solid-or-liquid-fueled-rocket-boosters

The Sonic Shark also didn't use an air-breathing jet engine, as there were no intakes on the front. So it was either rocket propelled or used some kind of sci-fi tech propulsion. Not enough to really say anything about its density or weight.

If the missile is going super fast (chasing Surfer) then a quick deflection would take it off its course by a long distance. The comic clearly shows Ben deflecting the missile and the comic states this as well.

It states that Ben "drove it into the stratosphere", meaning he used his own power to send it there.

The comic stated anchoring a battle cruiser (boat), not a spaceship lol. Spaceships are not ever anchored in fiction (why?). Plus even so then spaceships use antigravity to escape a planet and space warp to travel. Propulsion strength is unknown due to those factors.

Why would a Skrull, a member of an advanced, intergalactic race, who was currently on a spaceship when he made the statement, be talking about anything other than a spaceship? In fact, we have even seen a Skrull battlecruiser, in FF #256:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Skrull_Battle-Cruiser?so=search&file=Skrull_Battle-Cruiser_from_Fantastic_Four_Vol_1_256.png

Sure looks like a spaceship to me. Have we ever even seen a Skrull boat, let alone one made for battle (who would they be fighting in the oceans of their own planet?)

And we clearly see this Skrull battlecruiser releasing exhaust from its engines, so it uses a traditional reaction drive. It can clearly move at Earth's escape velocity at a very minimum. And it likely weighs a lot more than a Russian Kirov. (BTW, as I mentioned, the Kirov itself has a minimum unloaded weight of 24,300 tons, so that's already more than 10 times the 2000 tons you claim is Ben's limit, even if he were to only move the thing slightly).

Your arguments against the missile feat are somewhat logical, but it really seems like you're reaching when it comes to this one.

And just because I like posting these, here's the next one.

#92. Ben resists and breaks a hydraulic press that can push through a planet.

https://imgur.com/oMiIzYD
https://imgur.com/978w52E

Again this was advanced Skrull technology so unlikely to be hyperbole. I could show you the calc I did for it (it came out to some 8.7 megatons - that's energy, not weight), but I think it speaks for itself. He was also weakened by the Skrulls' nerve blasters when he did this. And if you don't buy that one for some reason, I have dozens more.

Pushing through a planet isn't such a big feat mind you. We have no idea about how much time it would take.

I think Milke just tried to say Thing's strength is above 2000 tons. Which the feat should be a proof for such claim. Since pushing through a planet in an acceptable time I would imagine requiring far more than just 2000 tons

Originally posted by abhilegend
Pushing through a planet isn't such a big feat mind you. We have no idea about how much time it would take.

I never said it was a planet level feat. My calc doesn't take time or KE into account, just the force that would be needed to accomplish the task, based on the area of the press itself and the compressive strength of the various layers of the Earth. It was fairly conservative but came out to 8.7 megatons, which is of course nowhere near planet level. But still pretty impressive.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually, most missiles use liquid or solid fuel. Missiles with gaseous fuel, like you're suggesting, don't even seem to be a thing at all, as far as some brief research leads me to believe.

https://www.quora.com/Do-modern-missiles-use-solid-or-liquid-fueled-rocket-boosters

The Sonic Shark also didn't use an air-breathing jet engine, as there were no intakes on the front. So it was either rocket propelled or used some kind of sci-fi tech propulsion. Not enough to really say anything about its density or weight.

It states that Ben "drove it into the stratosphere", meaning he used his own power to send it there.

Why would a Skrull, a member of an advanced, intergalactic race, who was currently on a spaceship when he made the statement, be talking about anything other than a spaceship? In fact, we have even seen a Skrull battlecruiser, in FF #256:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Skrull_Battle-Cruiser?so=search&file=Skrull_Battle-Cruiser_from_Fantastic_Four_Vol_1_256.png

Sure looks like a spaceship to me. Have we ever even seen a Skrull boat, let alone one made for battle (who would they be fighting in the oceans of their own planet?)

And we clearly see this Skrull battlecruiser releasing exhaust from its engines, so it uses a traditional reaction drive. It can clearly move at Earth's escape velocity at a very minimum. And it likely weighs a lot more than a Russian Kirov. (BTW, as I mentioned, the Kirov itself has a minimum unloaded weight of 24,300 tons, so that's already more than 10 times the 2000 tons you claim is Ben's limit, even if he were to only move the thing slightly).

Your arguments against the missile feat are somewhat logical, but it really seems like you're reaching when it comes to this one.

I never heard of a spaceship being anchored.
You don't understand a two fold argument do you? The 2nd part of my argument assumed it was a spaceship. Why focus on the 1st part (whether it's a boat or spaceship)? That's irrelevant. You suppose to defeat the 2nd part first (the most important) then defeat the 1st part if I concede the 2nd part.

I didn't argue that there was NO propulsion. I argued that fictional spaceships are known to use antigravity (to become weightless) so that they can escape to space with minimal use of fuel. They also can warp space in order to achieve FTL travel (or travel in hyperspace). Those factors make the propulsion strength unknown.

You can't compare a fictional spaceship (with unknown size and composition) to anything. In all honesty, that ship looks small. The front dome appears to have a diameter of 10-12ft (using the size of Nova). The ship can weigh anything from 200-1000 tons for all we know.

Lastly, the weight of a ship has absolutely nothing to do amount of EXTRA WEIGHT it can pull (External load). For example, a ship can weigh 100 tons but have a maximum external load limit of 10 tons. Less than 100 tons is used to anchor real battle cruisers (which weigh tens of thousands of tons).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And just because I like posting these, here's the next one.

Again this was advanced Skrull technology so unlikely to be hyperbole. I could show you the calc I did for it (it came out to some 8.7 megatons - that's energy, not weight), but I think it speaks for itself. He was also weakened by the Skrulls' nerve blasters when he did this. And if you don't buy that one for some reason, I have dozens more.

Energy and force are 2 different things.
Minimum Energy used (or work done) = Force x Displacement.
So divide that energy number by the diameter of a planet. You would get a small amount of force (less than 1000 tons).

A bullet can quickly penetrate a particular distance of a planet with a small amount of force (we feel the force as recoil).

Originally posted by h1a8
I meant gas in liquid form, like the gas we use to fill our cars.

Oh, okay. But still, solid fuel is also common.

You can drive something somewhere else by diverting it. Common sense.
Reed stated, "You have to make it SERVE off course." That proves writer's intent.

That's the minimum he had to do, but it was then stated that he drove it there, which I imply to mean using his own strength. But I can see how your interpretation is also valid.

I never heard of a spaceship being anchored.

Anchor it to a planet, space station, moon, wherever it's docked at. Seems simple enough to me.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anchor

noun
1. any of various devices dropped by a chain, cable, or rope to the bottom of a body of water for preventing or restricting the motion of a vessel or other floating object, typically having broad, hooklike arms that bury themselves in the bottom to provide a firm hold.
2. any similar device for holding fast or checking motion: an anchor of stones.
verb (used with object)
3. to hold fast by an anchor.
4. to fix or fasten; affix firmly: The button was anchored to the cloth with heavy thread.
verb (used without object)
5. to drop anchor; lie or ride at anchor: The ship anchored at dawn.
6. to keep hold or be firmly fixed: The insect anchored fast to its prey.

Definitions 3, 4, and 6 seem to fit just fine.

You don't understand a two fold argument do you? The 2nd part of my argument assumed it was a spaceship. Why focus on the 1st part (whether it's a boat or spaceship)? That's irrelevant. You suppose to defeat the 2nd part first (the most important) then defeat the 1st part if I concede the 2nd part.

Well I was just responding to everything you said. I argued both for it being a spaceship and for restraining something that could anchor a spaceship being a strength feat. I don't see why it really matters so much what order I put my arguments in.

I didn't argue that there was NO propulsion. I argued that fictional spaceships are known to use antigravity (to become weightless) so that they can escape to space with minimal use of fuel. They also can warp space in order to achieve FTL travel (or travel in hyperspace). Those factors make the propulsion strength unknown.

Except for:

A. We clearly see exhaust coming from the Skrull Battlecruiser (the specific type of spaceship referenced here) as it's flying through space. That means it's using a reaction drive (a drive that propels a vessel by releasing exhaust in the opposite direction of its movement).

B. Even if a spaceship used antigravity to make itself weightless, that wouldn't do anything to help it escape a physical block that was anchoring it to the ground.

C. The Skrull made a point of being impressed by Ben's feat. He clearly treated the block as something very strong, due to its ability to 'anchor a battlecruiser', and found it unbelievable that Ben was able to break it. That indicates that it would require a lot of force to do so. It only makes sense to say it's comparable to the force of the ship's engines moving it.

You can't compare a fictional spaceship (with unknown size and composition) to anything. In all honesty, that ship looks small. The front dome appears to have a diameter of 10-12ft (using the size of Nova). The ship can weigh anything from 200-1000 tons for all we know.

I could measure it, but I'm too lazy lol. Anyway, it would still be higher than its base mass/weight due to the thrust of its engines.

Lastly, the weight of a ship has absolutely nothing to do amount of EXTRA WEIGHT it can pull (External load). For example, a ship can weigh 100 tons but have a maximum external load limit of 10 tons. Less than 100 tons is used to anchor real battle cruisers (which weigh tens of thousands of tons).

We're talking about a spaceship, though. It's not the same as a water anchor, it would have to hold the ship to a planet against the power of the ship's engines, which has to be sufficient to achieve escape velocity.

Energy and force are 2 different things.
Minimum Energy used (or work done) = Force x Displacement.
So divide that energy number by the diameter of a planet. You would get a small amount of force (less than 1000 tons).

A bullet can quickly penetrate a particular distance of a planet with a small amount of force (we feel the force as recoil).

Please show your math for this to prove it's less than 1000 tons. I did a calc and got over 8 megatons of energy.

I already calced the surface area of the press, but this time I will use compressive strength. Again, assuming an earthlike planet, average crust depth = 45 km. Double that for both sides of the planet. CS of rock = 200 Mpa.

Volume of the tunnel through the crust = 38,464.8183 m^3.

38,464.8183 * 200 * 1,000,000 = 7.69296366e12 j.

The mantle is composed of several layers, the Mohorovicic discontinuity is basically rock and extends to around 200 km deep, so I can use 200 MPa for that. Subtracting the crust and multiplying for both sides of the planet, we get a volume of 132,489.9297 m^3.

132,489.9297 * 200 * 1,000,000 = 2.649798594e13 j.

I found a paper with a graph of CS of rock (magma) under pressure:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3DUrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=compressive+strength+of+magma&source=bl&ots=4cegKuia8-&sig=Ni5i7pz30t8pISXiZzTD3f3zyHM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3AZQUYexJpen4AOnwoDQAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

The only pressure I could find for the mantle was 140 GPa at the bottom of it, for an average I'll use half of that. Unfortunately, no equation is given with the chart, so I'll have to construct one. To go low-end (and since a large part of the mantle is made of it), I'll use peridotite. Its CS under a pressure of 2 kilobars is about 8 kilobars. Its CS under 1 is about 5. It seems to grow steadily after the initial upswing. This indicates a CS increase of 3 kilobars per kilobar of pressure. 70 GPa = 700 kilobars, or about 2102 kilobars CS. That's 210,200 Mpa. However, as we will see later, this is way too high. The graph must level off at some point. Just as an estimate, based on the values I got for the core, I'll divide this by 100.

Since we'll be using 2440 km for the inner core's diameter, and 2266 * 2 km for the outer core, add these and the crust and Moho we already did, then subtract them from the Earth's diameter to get 5370 km for the mantle. Volume of the tunnel through the mantle = 2,295,067.492 m^3.

2,295,067.492 * 2102 * 1,000,000 = 4.824231868e15 j.

I found an equation for the CS of iron under pressure (the inner and outer cores are nickel-iron, but I couldn't find that, so this is the best I could do).

Pressure of the outer core ranges from 140 to 330 GPa. Using the average.

CS = 2.9 + 0.028 * 235 = 9.48 Gpa

Width of outer core = 2266 km, double that for both sides of the planet. Volume of the tunnel = 1,936,917.295 m^3.

1,936,917.295 * 9480 * 1,000,000 = 1.836197596e16 j.

Pressure in the inner core is 330 to 360 GPa, we'll use the average.

2.9 + 0.028 * 345 = 12.56 GPa

The diameter of the inner core is 2440 km, so the volume of this part would be 1,042,823.963 m^3.

1,042,823.963 * 12560 * 1,000,000 = 1.309786898e16 j.

Total is 3.631826775e16 j, or 8.68027432 Mt.

I used a lot of really conservative estimates here too, so this is a major low-end. And he did it while weakened.

Anyway, instead of going through feats one-by-one in order, I figured that I would just look through some of my scans and try to find something as unambiguous as possible.

Here he resists against and breaks a machine that could level a small mountain:

https://imgur.com/qhtQCsx

Even the smallest mountains weigh millions of tons.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Oh, okay. But still, solid fuel is also common.

That's the minimum he had to do, but it was then stated that he drove it there, which I imply to mean using his own strength. But I can see how your interpretation is also valid.

Anchor it to a planet, space station, moon, wherever it's docked at. Seems simple enough to me.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anchor

Definitions 3, 4, and 6 seem to fit just fine.

Well I was just responding to everything you said. I argued both for it being a spaceship and for restraining something that could anchor a spaceship being a strength feat. I don't see why it really matters so much what order I put my arguments in.

Except for:

A. We clearly see exhaust coming from the Skrull Battlecruiser (the specific type of spaceship referenced here) as it's flying through space. That means it's using a reaction drive (a drive that propels a vessel by releasing exhaust in the opposite direction of its movement).

B. Even if a spaceship used antigravity to make itself weightless, that wouldn't do anything to help it escape a physical block that was anchoring it to the ground.

C. The Skrull made a point of being impressed by Ben's feat. He clearly treated the block as something very strong, due to its ability to 'anchor a battlecruiser', and found it unbelievable that Ben was able to break it. That indicates that it would require a lot of force to do so. It only makes sense to say it's comparable to the force of the ship's engines moving it.

With B. If the ship is weightless then that kills how strong the block has to be in order to anchor it.

C is correct but we are now dealing with opinions and not quantifiable measures. 100 tons was very impressive to me that year the comic was released.

I could measure it, but I'm too lazy lol. Anyway, it would still be higher than its base mass/weight due to the thrust of its engines.

We're talking about a spaceship, though. It's not the same as a water anchor, it would have to hold the ship to a planet against the power of the ship's engines, which has to be sufficient to achieve escape velocity.

Please show your math for this to prove it's less than 1000 tons. I did a calc and got over 8 megatons of energy.

I used a lot of really conservative estimates here too, so this is a major low-end. And he did it while weakened.

I guess you didn't understand the basic physics equation I gave for calculating force given energy and distance.

Just take your energy result and divide it by the diameter of a Planet Then tell how the number looks now lol.

Originally posted by Booya_69
C list characters get c list treatment. We all know gladiator jobs alot, but we know where he stands in terms of power. We seen superman go all out against mongul in a fight that went from planet to planet. Impressive display of power no doubt, but superman admitted he couldn't defeat him.
We've seen brb and stardust fight in a similar manner. Their fight was also a galaxy level fight as they went from planet to planet even destroying some in their battle. Can you guess who beat brb in a single page? That's right, gladiator did.
Jane thor took it to Odin and mangog. Can you guess who restrained jane thor by her throat? That's right, gladiator did.
Nope gladiator hasn't defeated darksied. Can you guess who's strength is greatly respected by Thanos? You guessed it buddy. Gladiator is right. Gladiator had a prolonged fight against Hyperion and they were fighting in nanoseconds. He's also crossed a galaxy in a blink of an eye. We know he's super fast by comic standards given that red and blue blur he leaves as he flies. Just like Superman.
Your stuck on lowballling him. Wasnt annihulk an amped version?

Hyperion freaking stopped two planets from colliding with each other at high speeds. He took down multiple builders and gained respect from thor. I'm sure his combat skills are adequate enough to engage superman.
Does Sentry need expert combat skills when he can give himself new super powers? Talking him out of fight is not a given either. You can't just dismiss it as an absolute (I addressed this earlier)

Honestly I haven't even picked a winner, but to act like this a cakewalk for clark is ridiculous.

Gladiator is sometimes on, and most of the times off of his game. This all depends upon his confidence. Anni-Hulk went at it with the Hulk, and he wasn’t able to beat the mess out of him like he did to Gladiator. In every appearance that Gladiator is in a fight with an equal, or more powerful character than himself, he loses. Hyperion can not fight. That was also a different version of Hyperion than the current one.

When he fought the FF what ended up happening? His confidence failed and he went onto once again lose. This is exactly what would happen here, so we know that his powers aren’t the most dependable even at his best.

Hyperion of current canon briefly held two planets apart, and I am not saying that this is not impressive, but we later see him knocked out of the sky by Smasher. He doesn’t have many combat feats to pull from. How do you argue for him? Again not the same Hyperion that Gladiator fought, and still too slow within an atmosphere to react to Superman. How far does strength alone take you if you can’t actually fight?

Thanos commented on how Gladiator was the most dangerous of his team just before sending him to parts unknown, and beating the rest of his team with ease. We never actually see them fight.

Sentry literally flew into the Hulk’s fist face first, and the Hulk is so much slower than Superman that it would be difficult to calculate the difference.

Both Hyperion and Count Nefaria are hopelessly outmatched if Superman used his speed at full power. My point is this, if Superman uses his full speed, he would only be taking on two of these characters at a time, not all four.

When Gladiator is hit with sufficient force he tends to fold. This is not me lowballing, but what was actually shown. Lowballing would be me using Gambit as a means to attempt to prove a point. What I did was use characters that have fought against Gladiator that could be compared to the characters that Superman has fought and defeated.

How would Gladiator do against Mongul, Doomsday, Rogol Zaar, Darkseid, Brainiac, Cyborg Superman, Lobo, and many others? Was his battle against Black Dwarf a low showing for him? You did mention some choice characters that he has overpowered, but how would they compare to Superman? Classic Thor, and Jane Thor would not defeat a serious Superman. How could they if they wouldn’t even be able to see him attacking them?

Gladiator gets such a low score because of the fact that his powers are hit or miss. Fighting skill actually does hold a lot of weight, because as we saw in the Gladiator vs Hyperion fight Gladiator defeated him because of his better combat skills. I’m really interested in understanding how you see this as close, because as I stated Count Nefaria is a non factor here, and to a lesser extent so is Hyperion within an atmosphere. Place the fight in outer space and Hyperion becomes a factor, however Count Nefaria with is with ionic powers may not even be able to survive in space. But, for sure, I acknowledge you points, I however do not believe that the skill is there, and at the speeds that Superman can move, there would be little time to learn a strategy to stop him before he takes out both Nefaria and Hyperion.

Needed to add something here. Anni-Hulk was physically defeated by Thanos but won the match due to duplicity. Gladiator was no match for Anni-Hulk as you all recall, but again Thanos was able to defeat him until he was cheated of victory. I would place Thanos and Darkseid avatars at near even. Darkseid should be able to hold his own against Anni-Hulk, and likely take a narrow victory. This alone shows that Superman is superior by comparison.

We’ve seen time and again that Trans tier characters tend to walk over High Heralds to the point that it takes at least seven powerful High Heralds to compete against them. How would a fight between Gladiator go if he fought Thanos? Look no further than how well Gladiator did against Anni-Hulk? In my opinion, Thanos would defeat this team as well, as would Anni-Hulk, and Darkseid.

Where'd you get the number 7

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Where'd you get the number 7

V&V Despero. Although that number can differ depending upon power sets in play.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anyway, instead of going through feats one-by-one in order, I figured that I would just look through some of my scans and try to find something as unambiguous as possible.

Here he resists against and breaks a machine that could level a small mountain:

https://imgur.com/qhtQCsx

Even the smallest mountains weigh millions of tons.

Hyperbole. Titanium can't level a small mountain.
And "level" is undefined.

@Stoic

What Darkseid and Superman fight are you using?

Any of the ones that shows Superman winning against Darkseid. To my knowledge he’s defeated Darkseid twice.