Most powerful physical feat

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> [0,1],
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

THAT'S what I said!! Except Astner said we're only dealing with positive integers🙁

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll pose the same question/analogy to Astner that I posed to carver, then...

Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed an infinite amount of universes in a finite amount of time, and he did so by [primarily] wiping them out one by one. Does that mean the pre-crisis multiverse wasn't actually infinite, despite the numerous sources citing it as such?

I am now genuinely curious what your stance is here.

And I'm fairly certain you could make a similar same argument for Marvel with the Incursions during Time Runs Out, but I'm not going to proof-check that either.

Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't say "retconned", I said "refined"... Which is absolutely based on what we saw in the comics.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

No mapping is going to to evenly distribute the pages, meaning you're going to have some form a convergence at a point, which (if we assume the pages are equally thick) means the pages would have to be infinitesimally thin, and that makes up a zero measure on the reals.

This also follows from the fact the Lebesgue measure of any countable set is zero.

And if they are in order there's not going to be a final page because the integers is an open set.

Originally posted by Magnon
As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/pi) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

Originally posted by Magnon
We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> [0,1],
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

Originally posted by Astner
It's been a very long time since I've read Crisis on Infinte Earths, and I'm not going to proof-check it for this question, but it could very well be the case that infinity is used figuratively here too.

And I'm fairly certain you could make a similar same argument for Marvel with the Incursions during Time Runs Out, but I'm not going to proof-check that either.

Interesting... This is a very slippery slope.

Originally posted by Astner
No. In fact Ultraman contradicts this. If you want to make the argument that Ultraman was wrong, then you'd have to point to where in the comics it's suggested that he's wrong.

Originally posted by Astner
No mapping is going to to evenly distribute the pages, meaning you're going to have some form a convergence at a point, which (if we assume the pages are equally thick) means the pages would have to be infinitesimally thin, and that makes up a zero measure on the reals.

Originally posted by Astner
And if they are in order there's not going to be a final page because the integers is an open set.

Originally posted by Astner
If you're referring to the Extended Integers then no, you can't simply *extend* the Integers, because infinity in the Extended Integers is a non-numerical element with the property of being greater than all numbers, and not just "another number."

Originally posted by Magnon
or they'd need to overlap in space.

That sounds like the comic depicts

"A book with an infinite number of pages, all occupying the same space"
https://ibb.co/D5F45nC

The bio
"A single book with infinite pages, all cuupying the same space"
https://i.ibb.co/hCnrPsG/3.png

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I actually would say SBP's showing against DK( the evil Batman) in Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin is more impressive than the Crises Punch. Though it isn't a pure strength feat per se.

Besides, I think that story is the best in the Death Metal event and it also is a perfect conclusion for SBP's journey. I personally recommand you to read it

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin

Okay, read it. Seems he destroyed the proto-multiverse that DK was in the process of creating.

About that, Dark Multiverse actually is far larger than 52 universes. The 52 universes are the main Multiverse/3-D Multiverse

Okay, I just checked that and you're right.

Originally posted by abhilegend

The very nature of the COIE means it has to involve infinite Earths. So did Final Crisis. The events differed such that the villains won.

We didn't see infinite Earths, though. We just saw the Anti-Monitor in a child/dwarf form sitting in a white void (what happened to his classic form? I guess they changed it because it would look silly if he was talking to Batman while at his full size, and shrinking him down but keeping the classic form would also look silly).

And why did Darkseid in the alternate Final Crisis world have horns? I don't remember that from the original FC. I don't think we can just assume there were multiverses involved in each of them.

That doesn't mean anything, at all.

I would say it does, as if she was getting energy from 3 infinite multiverses, conquering one multiverse of 52 universes wouldn't be taking so long.

There was also the fact that Wonder Woman was trying to tell SBP that if he helped them, they could create a new multiverse that was truly infinite, and SBP at first didn't like the idea, because it meant there could be other universes that would threaten his. So that implies that, in universe he was in at the time, there wasn't an infinite multiverse.

Originally posted by Astner
It's called the "Infinite Book," but it clearly wasn't literally infinite because the monkey who wrote it died.

I wasn't talking about the book there, I was talking about Hulk and Ironclad.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
[B]100 tons ain't that much irl --- two heavy tanks can easily weight more than that.

Yeah, but if you treat everything by real-world standards (which is what he was saying, I think), a person could never lift 100 tons. And even if there was some kind of way to make a person that strong in real life (future technology like cyborg implants or power armor, etc.) it still wouldn't work the same way it does in fiction, because if they still stood on two feet, the pressure would cause them to sink into the ground.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Honestly, I never really bought the idea of the DC Multiverse(or any company's multiverse for that matter) as being truly "infinite". If it were, all but 5 universes couldn't have been destroyed. To me personally, it seemed more like an "infinite potential/possibility" type thing. By the same token, I don't think the Beyonders really destroyed an infinite number of Celestials because that wouldn't have taken a really long time as the narration said, it would have taken an infinite amount of time. Don't get me wrong because I understand how and why many prefer to try to simply take such story elements with a grain of salt and even tried to adjust my thinking to go along with the rest of the forum in cosmic debates way back when, but for me it really does seem so nonsensical that it should be considered hyperbole.

Well when you get to cosmic stuff, time is a factor that doesn't operate how you would intuitively expect it to. A reality warper could destroy or create something in zero time at all, or even in negative time (doing it retroactively, by altering the past). RL physics even predicts such phenomena as 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time]imaginary time', which is time defined in terms of imaginary numbers, neither negative nor positive as we understand them.

So trying to apply our mundane conceptions of time as we experience it day-to-day doesn't really work in these kinds of scenarios.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> [0,1],
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

There are other issues, though, such as with physics. If the claim is that because the book has infinite pages, then it has infinite mass, and thus infinite weight, then:

1. Why doesn't it collapse into a black hole?

2. Why is there another gravity field around it? The book itself is sitting on top of something before anyone lifts it. If it had infinite weight/mass, it would also have infinite gravity, so everything would be pulled towards/orbiting around the book itself. So that means that the gravity field it's in is stronger than its own gravity - gravity stronger than infinite gravity? And everyone standing in that same gravity field is already using stronger than infinite strength just to stand and move.

The obvious answer is that the physics in Limbo are different. But that kind of torpedoes the argument of using it as a strength feat, because if the physics are so different, you can't prove that it would require infinite strength to lift, even if it did literally have infinite pages.

Anyway, here is my ranking of all of the strength feats posted in this thread so far:

1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys 3 (or more) universes with a punch
4. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
5. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
6. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
7. Superboy throws mini neutron star
8. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
9. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
10. Superman changes diamond into coal
11. Superman catches 2 ton weight

* I don't

** Ranked lower because they are shared feats

Originally posted by Galan007
Hmm. So instead of accepting the dozens of sources explicitly stating that each continuity contained infinite universes, you feel that it is more logical to ignore all of that and assume that neither is actually infinite... Even though we are dealing with a fictional genre, where the "impossible"(like an alien Jesus who flies around shooting laser beams out of his eyes and lifting earth-weight) happens all the time.

Interesting... This is a very slippery slope.

Infinity can be used figuratively and it can be used literally, and a repeated figurative use of a term doesn't translate into a literal use of it.

We determine whether a use is figurative or literal by the context. If "infinity" refers to the number of stars in the galaxy, we take it as being figurative. If it refers to a value greater than any finite value then we take it as being literal.

When it comes to the Infinite Earths, has there been any cases for a literal use? Probably. And those cases would have to be weighted against the cases for figurative uses to determine which interpretation is appropriate.

But that's not relevant when it comes to the Infinite Book because there are no contexts for literal interpertations of infinity as it pertains to it in the stories we're discussing.

Originally posted by Magnon
There's no requirement for the pages to be evenly spaced. Quite naturally, if you fit an infinite number of pages within a finite interval they cannot have a fixed finite spacing between them. So (most) pages would need to be infinitesimally thin or they'd need to overlap in space. Or, the interior of the book would have to be described by some weird non-Euclidean geometry / non-Euclidean metric. Lots of possibilities.

Sure, it's easy to prove things if you don't have to commit to anything. But at that point you might as well embrace a contradiction and use it to prove anything via ex falso quodlibet.

Originally posted by Magnon
I'm extending the map. The infinity in my example can be just a label without any additional meaning beyond being an element of a set. It simply labels the final page, i.e. the page at x=1.

That resolved, the problem is that your composition map isn't linear, which is something that you can require by saying that the pages have to be in order. So you can't select "one random page" and requrie it to be the final page.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anyway, here is my ranking of all of the strength feats posted in this thread so far:

1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys 3 (or more) universes with a punch
4. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
5. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
6. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
7. Superboy throws mini neutron star
8. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
9. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
10. Superman changes diamond into coal
11. Superman catches 2 ton weight

* I don't

** Ranked lower because they are shared feats

Personally, I would argue some writers did take the word "infinite" as the literal sense when writing their works, but without knowing the implication of infinity(pretty much like lightspeed).

So Ultraman/Superman and Shazam's lifting infinite book and Hulk's infinite dimensions feats to 6 or somewhere below universal-feats

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Personally, I would argue some writers did take the word "infinite" as the literal sense when writing their works, but without knowing the implication of infinity(pretty much like lightspeed).

So Ultraman/Superman and Shazam's lifting infinite book and Hulk's infinite dimensions feats to 6 or somewhere below universal-feats

Well I'm just going by the face value for the list (even if I don't buy it) because otherwise it gets way too subjective.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well I'm just going by the face value for the list (even if I don't buy it) because otherwise it gets way too subjective.

I'm asking because I saw Abhi sending you some issues, but I can help clear up some more of them for you.

Originally posted by Astner
That resolved, the problem is that your composition map isn't linear, which is something that you can require by saying that the pages have to be in order. So you can't select "one random page" and requrie it to be the final page.

I've read all of the Final Crisis Beyond stuff with the book, but that was a while ago.

I've read all of the Hulk ones

I've read the Earth bench pressing one

I've read the SBP one.

Haven't read the others.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I've read all of the Hulk ones

Originally posted by Astner
You're at the same page as abhi here.

Infinity can be used figuratively and it can be used literally, and a repeated figurative use of a term doesn't translate into a literal use of it.

We determine whether a use is figurative or literal by the context. If "infinity" refers to the number of stars in the galaxy, we take it as being figurative. If it refers to a value greater than any finite value then we take it as being literal.

When it comes to the Infinite Earths, has there been any cases for a literal use? Probably. And those cases would have to be weighted against the cases for figurative uses to determine which interpretation is appropriate.

But that's not relevant when it comes to the Infinite Book because there are no contexts for literal interpertations of infinity as it pertains to it in the stories we're discussing.

This is fiction -- and fiction, by its very nature, isn't intended to hold up under any sort of real world or scientific scrutiny. In the world of fiction, authorial intent(be it logical or illogical) is all that really matters. That is the guideline we have go by.

And in this case, Morrison went out of his way to reiterate that the Book of Limbo:
-Contained every book possible.
-Contained infinite pages.
-Required infinite memory capacity to process.
-Contained the whole of existence.

...Which should honestly make his intent on the matter abundantly clear, tbh.

So my opinion is that even IF we assume that Ultraman actually saw [what he perceived as] the last page of the Book, it doesn't diminish the fact that it was still intended to be infinite... Just like Anti-Monitor individually wiping out almost every universe within an infinite multiverse doesn't diminish the numerous sources confirming that it was indeed infinite.

I say again: we're discussing fiction, where the "impossible" is commonplace -- suspension of disbelief and all that.

But this is clearly a hill you're prepared to die on, so I see no reason to continue our discussion beyond this.

Originally posted by Galan007

And in this case, Morrison went out out his way to reiterate that the Book of Limbo:
-Contained every book possible.
-Contained infinite pages.

The only reason I don't give the feat more credit is due to infinity often means little in fiction. Like lightspeed, writers wrote it but without knowing the implication of such word

However, arguing the word "infinite" in said scene Morrison didn't intent to take the word in the literal sense also isn't very reasonable IMO

Originally posted by Astner
It's extremely problematic to have to resort to explanations like pages of variable widths or parameterized spaces to justify an argument when there are no implications of their implementation.

Sure, it's easy to prove things if you don't have to commit to anything. But at that point you might as well embrace a contradiction and use it to prove anything via ex falso quodlibet.

Originally posted by Astner
Then you're not using infinity. You're simply using an unspecified element which you conventiently decided to call "infinity."

That resolved, the problem is that your composition map isn't linear, which is something that you can require by saying that the pages have to be in order. So you can't select "one random page" and requrie it to be the final page.

My map g is not a composition map but a function-theoretical extension of the map f. Its linearity is irrelevant; I can very well define the final page of the book to be the page with the largest x-value, in this case x=1. Just watch me:

Definition (final page): The final page (of Magnon's book construction) is the page with the largest x-value.

I did put an asterisk on the Hulk/Ironclad feat. I don't buy it being infinite, as I've said before on this very thread.

Also, as said before, outliers are allowed on this thread. It's just about the greatest physical strength feats, even if they are outliers. I don't doubt that the ones without asterisks happened as they're presented, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're consistent with the character.

Oh, I agree the outliers are valid.

But I'm talking about the feats themselves -- they're not of that magnitude, certainly not enough to even rank them. We can talk about 5 and 6 if you'd like [where you put no asterisk], and then move to Iron Clad.

Endless, are you free to discuss your interpretation of a ft?