Most powerful physical feat

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I have re-read the comic (thus far, all of my arguments that have defeated you have been based on random memories).

You have misunderstood the scan. You read that panel, and you interpret it as Quantum Superman saying the matter in Limbo is not there, or something.

But that is wrong.

Quantum Superman is telling Superman not to worry about combining with Ultraman. Earlier in the book, we are clearly told:

Not once, but twice:

Pretty important plot point, no?

But Quantum Superman is explaining to Superman that he wouldn't be annihilated, and to trust him - aftewards, he can still go save Lois:

Ultimately, even if they combine, Quantum Superman is telling him that in Limbo, they wouldn't be destroyed - because the memory will continue to live on. I mean, we clearly see outsiders (Superman, Ultraman, Shazam , Overman etc) interacting with *things*, so there is clearly *stuff* in Limbo.

So I don't understand what your argument is. Are you arguing that Limbo is just made of memories, no physical matter? Then what are the ships anchoring themselves to? What *trash* are the ships taking? What is the infinite computer of the Ultima Thule reading, interacting with, if it is just metaphysical memory? We even see Shazam pointing out a shard from the Rock of Eternity (and bonus, Overman handling some random tech):

[b]TL;DR: Limbo has physical matter, but Superman's sacrifice did not mean he would be destroyed, so he can still go on to save Lois afterward. So you are misunderstanding that scan and running with 'there is no physical matter in Limbo' - which is wrong, because Limbo is made up of matter. When superheroes are forgotten in the *real* (i.e. comicbook) world, they go to Limbo. They don't become weaker.

Then we go onto the next part of your posts, that because Ultraman read to the end, it isn't infinite. Which is silly, because:

A: you can have a beginning and an end to infinity - there are infinite numbers between 1 &2; and

B: Ultraman was clearly wrong:

The Infinite Book contains every possible book (which was my question to you for six long years, lol):

So all Ultraman did, was read to the end of *A* book, where Mandrakk won. Obviously, Mandrakk...did not win -there is more than one story, after all. Evil did not win. [/B]

You also have Superman specifically mentioned strength being a factor in lifting the Infinite Book

Indeed.

But Carver needs it explained as to why Quantum Superman said what he said - which is what my post also provides. I'm sure he's not the only one who misinterprets that single panel (which goes to show the dangers of just focussing on single panels, especially in a Morrison book like this).

Limbo is merely the place where forgotten heroes go to, where they will be effectively immortal because they will never be forgotten in that place.:

It doesn't mean they are immaterial. It just means that they'll exist in....well, limbo, forever.

We even see Shazam take the shard back to his universe at the end of his story:

So no, Limbo isn't immaterial. So the book is material.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
My point was that if they were both infinite, neither one would have the advantage over the other.

- Animal Man (1988) #25

Not to mention it had a final chapter.

- Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2

That said, it's probably a massive book because it did contain the complete works of Shakespeare. And you don't have to be an expert in combinatorics to realize that this will number will blow up. But it has been done before and it's something like a ten million digits long number, which puts it in the same category of bullshit as Cyborg's million decibel white noise.

- Animal Man (1988) #25

The Great Book of Kings also allegedly had infinite pages, which also obviously bullshit.

- Thor (2020) #8

A:
Final chapter does not mean finite pages. I can have ten chapters, with the last chapter being infinite in length.

B:
Ultraman was obviously wrong, as the story did not end with Mandrakk winning. So he hadn't finished the story, or, had read *A* book that ended with Mandrakk winning.

C:
Just because you have a beginning and an end, does not mean finite. There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2, as you well know.

Pick your poison.

PS: phildo still awaits you. You're obviously able to do research etc now.

Originally posted by Astner
It's called the "Infinite Book," but it clearly wasn't literally infinite because the monkey who wrote it died.

- Animal Man (1988) #25

Not to mention it had a final chapter.

- Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2

That said, it's probably a massive book because it did contain the complete works of Shakespeare. And you don't have to be an expert in combinatorics to realize that this will number will blow up. But it has been done before and it's something like a ten million digits long number, which puts it in the same category of bullshit as Cyborg's million decibel white noise.

- Animal Man (1988) #25

The Great Book of Kings also allegedly had infinite pages, which also obviously bullshit.

- Thor (2020) #8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A: Final chapter does not mean finite pages. I can have ten chapters, with the last chapter being infinite in length.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
B: Ultraman was obviously wrong, as the story did not end with Mandrakk winning. So he hadn't finished the story, or, had read *A* book that ended with Mandrakk winning.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
C: Just because you have a beginning and an end, does not mean finite. There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2, as you well know.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pick your poison.

I'm not even giving the book the finite number of pages that are implied to exist because it's so far beyond what Superman has ever shown that there's no point in even humoring it.

The weight of the Earth that Superman bench-pressed, which is one of his most impressive feats, is like nothing in comparison.

So this falls under Author Induced Stupidity just like the Hulk's Richter Scale feat and Cyborg's million decibel feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PS: phildo still awaits you. You're obviously able to do research etc now.

Originally posted by Astner
Technically correct but non-applicable. Since the monkey who wrote it died.

Maybe, but the book that Superman and Captain Marvel lifted was the same book that Ultraman lifted and read.

So it being the same physical book.....means nothing. Your argument is like arguing that we must have listened to the same song, just because we are holding the same DVD. Moreover, the whole point was that the Ultima Thule could read and download the needed repair manual from the same physical book:

I don't think repair manuals end with 'Evil wins, everyone dies, you will all kneel to Mandrakk'. In short, different books.

You're not making a proper case against any of the arguments I've presented. Mainly because your arguments aren't based off the comics, they're excuses based off interpretative wiggle room.

And

And

And

So based off comics, we take it at face value, no wriggle room, as you put it.

I'm not even giving the book the finite number of pages that are implied to exist because it's so far beyond what Superman has ever shown that there's no point in even humoring it.

The weight of the Earth that Superman bench-pressed, which is one of his most impressive feats, is like nothing in comparison.

So this falls under Author Induced Stupidity just like the Hulk's Richter Scale feat and Cyborg's million decibel feat.

Edit: the entire premise of the story, is that Superman can do the impossible@

Want to chalk it up as an outlier? Sure. But that is not what this thread is about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Proof that it's the same monkey? Merryman merely says *A* monkey.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which contains *every possible book*:

So it being the same physical book.....means nothing. Your argument is like arguing that we must have listened to the same song, just because we are holding the same DVD.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Moreover, the whole point was that the Ultima Thule could read and download the needed repair manual from the same physical book:

I don't think repair manuals end with 'Evil wins, everyone dies, you will all kneel to Mandrakk'. In short, different books.

Because based off the comics, we have:

So based off comics, we take it at face value, no wriggle room, as you put it.

So it being named the "Infinite Book" or being said to have "infinite pages" is not going to overshadow the fact that it was written by a monkey who died.

But we don't have to go that far because it falls under Author Induced Stupidty for simply generating the complete works of Shakespeare, which is far beyond what Superman could ever hope to lift. We're not humoring Cyborg's million decibel feat and we're not humoring this.

As for the physical/material arguement, the only things in Limbo that were physical in Animal Man was Animal Man (because he wasn't part of Limbo) and I assume the same argument would hold in Superman Beyond.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit: the entire premise of the story, is that Superman can do the impossible

Want to chalk it up as an outlier? Sure. But that is not what this thread is about.

Either way I'm not dismissing it for being an outlier, I'm dismissing it for being hyperbole. We know this because it had an end.

You'd have a better case for arguing that the Book of Kings that kid Thor tried to read was infinite. If anything it's even more impressive because kid Thor didn't struggle opening it, where Superman and Captain Marvel failed. But at this point I'm just humoring your nonsense.

Dark is making nothing but excuses. He would exempt this ft if it was any other marvel character.

Astner, no one uses the feat as proof to Superman having infinite strength in a forum fight. But you can not deny the book had infinite pages when the comic explicitly says so. Like DS said, it can be ruled as an extreme outlier. But for the purposes of the thread, it is valid (OP didn't say that PIS is not allowed).

Me personally don't use infinite feats as they are not quantifiable and are too much of an outlier to be used for evidence of how strong someone is in a forum (they are basically lies).

The best feat I can think of is Superman breaking the chains that were used to haul stars between galaxies.

Originally posted by h1a8
Astner, no one uses the feat as proof to Superman having infinite strength in a forum fight. But you can not deny the book had infinite pages when the comic explicitly says so. Like DS said, it can be ruled as an extreme outlier. But for the purposes of the thread, it is valid (OP didn't say that PIS is not allowed).

And considering the fact that it had an end, and it was written by a monkey who died. Why would you take it literally?

Given the context of the story it's not literally infinite.

Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the [omniscient] monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

Originally posted by Astner
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that there are two different Infinite Books, written by two different monkeys, despite the fact that both stories are written by the same writer, and despite the fact that it was never specified?

Sounds like you're injecting your own words here, tbh. Because that's not what was said - at no point did Merryman say it was the same monkey, only that it was a monkey. Your line of argument relies on this premise, so feel free to back it up with actual proof, not interpretive wriggle room, as you say.

No it's not. The book didn't get a new final chapter when Ultraman decided to lift it, that's not how things work.

And it didn't.

We never take the word "infinity" literally unless we're given a proper explanation to the nature of its context, because it's a word that's used more figuratively than literally.

So it being named the "Infinite Book" or being said to have "infinite pages" is not going to overshadow the fact that it was written by a monkey who died.

But we don't have to go that far because it falls under Author Induced Stupidty for simply generating the complete works of Shakespeare, which is far beyond what Superman could ever hope to lift. We're not humoring Cyborg's million decibel feat and we're not humoring this.

As for the physical/material arguement, the only things in Limbo that were physical in Animal Man was Animal Man (because he wasn't part of Limbo) and I assume the same argument would hold in Superman Beyond.

Are you injecting your own words into the comics? Because that's not what's said.

Either way I'm not dismissing it for being an outlier, I'm dismissing it for being hyperbole.

I am confused, because you're sounding pretty hypocritical. On the one hand, you tell me to use what's on the page. Fine. On the page, it literally states infinite pages etc. Then you start making excuses; 'oh it can't possibly be that much, hyperbole!'

Which is it?

Ultraman said he read the end of the infinite book, not the end of a story. He said he saw the final chapter, not the final chapter of one story. Those words are clear.

Originally posted by carver9
Ultraman said he read the end of the infinite book, not the end of a story. He said he saw the final chapter, not the final chapter of one story. Those words are clear.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was explicitly stated that it would require the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity in order to read the Book of Limbo. Why? Because processing infinity, requires infinity.

That said, the Book was text-form(hence its infinite pages), but it also 'uploaded' certain contents of itself into the readers' minds -- showing them what they wanted/needed to see. In Superman and Billy's case, it revealed the true threat behind FC to them(ie. Mandrakk), and also revealed a possible means of defeating him(ie. Thought-Robot.)

So it's possible that the Book simply revealed the "Mandrakk Chapter" to Ultraman, because he was absolutely fangirling over the idea of worshiping a hateful God... And Ultraman, being a complete idiot, just figured that it must be the last chapter. /shrug

All of that being said, I would also point out that Anti-Monitor very nearly wiped out every single universe within the infinite pre-crisis multiverse...in a finite amount of time...by destroying the universes individually. Logically speaking, that shouldn't have been possible, either... But this is fiction ffs, not scientific papers.

Originally posted by Galan007
Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the [omniscient] monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

Edit:
Also, like DS and Galan pointed out, if we go by what the clear-cut words in the comic, then it specifically states has infinite pages, contains every possible book and whole existence

Originally posted by Galan007
Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the [omniscient] monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

I also like how the end of the arc is a commentary on stories itself:

Lois: "I have a story to tell"
Clark: "Can't wait to hear it, Lois. I can't wait to hear it"

To be Continued

...signifying their endless nature and Superman never letting the concept of Mandrakk win.

Originally posted by Astner
Something can be called infinite in a figurative sense. This is a fairly basic definition of the word.

And considering the fact that it had an end, and it was written by a monkey who died. Why would you take it literally?

Given the context of the story it's not literally infinite.

You sure love jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ultraman read it because Ultima Thule has infinite memory capacity.

The reason I'm not accepting Galan's interpretation of "Ultraman didn't know what he was talking about," and "the book was retconned," is because it's not based on the comics. If you don't have to fall back on canon to motivate your excuses then you can excuse anything, which makes the excuses worthless.

It's odd because people are chastising Carver for doing this, and then doing it themselves.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How does the monkey dying has anything to do with the fact that it's been repeatedly stated as containing infinite pages AND entirety of creation?

The fact that the word "infinity" is being repeated doesn't make it any more literal.

If I refer to the number of droplets in the ocean as "infinte," it doesn't matter whether I do it once or a hundred times, it's still going to be figurative.

Even Galan argued that we shouldn't scrutinize the feat, which to me is as good as a concession that the feat doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Originally posted by Astner
You're missing the point. The problem is that it can't be literally infinite because it had an end.

No, it's infinite because the comic said so, repeatedly.

The reason I'm not accepting Galan's interpretation of "Ultraman didn't know what he was talking about," and "the book was retconned," is because it's not based on the comics. If you don't have to fall back on canon to motivate your excuses then you can excuse anything.

Like you're doing, right now?

It's odd because people are chastising Carver for doing this, and then doing it themselves.

Because it provides the context for the nature of the book.

The fact that the word "infinity" is being repeated doesn't make it any more literal.

Because?

If I refer to the number of droplets in the ocean as "infinte," it doesn't matter whether I do it once or a hundred times, it's still going to be figurative.

Even Galan argued that we shouldn't scrutinize the feat, which to me is as good as a concession that the feat doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Any comic feat doesn't hold to scrutiny. Pretty much every feat in fiction doesn't.

What's your point?

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's infinite because the comic said so, repeatedly.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like you're doing, right now?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Any comic feat doesn't hold to scrutiny. Pretty much every feat in fiction doesn't.

What's your point?

Bench-pressing 5.972 sextillion tons is only more impressive than lifting 100 tons if we assume that logic holds. Because "5.972 sextillion tons > 100 tons" is a proposition that has to be evaluated logically.