Originally posted by Makedde
One arguement against adoption is that there are too many kids up for adoption, or else it's because the woman doesn't want stretch marks.
I think that last part of your statement carries the most truth. I doubt anyone can logically say "There are too many kids up for adoption, so ending it's life is better for the child".
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But Makkede thinks the foetus is just like the born baby, so there is NO contradiction in makkede's statements. Again- pro-life people think it is murder, so the woman's chpice is irrelevant. It is not right to choose to commit murder just to benefit yourself.You simply have to wrap your head around this point about it being murder and so the woman's choice is overridden by the right of any Human to be alive. That is the position of pro-life.
A fetus has less rights than the woman carrying it, I agree with my pro choice friends when they say this, but once the fetus becomes viable, and can survive outside the womb, it should be treated like a child that is born. It should be illegal to kill a viable child.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh bullshit.I agree with you in some respect. If a girl acting like a ****, gets preganant...then gets it aborted, it's irresponsible use of an abortion. That's as far as it goes with me. Nothing to do with the foetus being a cute little baby or any of that sanctimonius horsecrap. It's irresponsible and idiotic, however, it's her choice. Idiotic uses of abortion WILL happen, but that doesn't mean we should stop everyone using them just because there are idiots does it?
You are against euthanasia because you're against suffering...let's play with this:
If a woman gets pregnant and wants an abortion because her life will be worse if the baby is born, and she doesn't want adoption, you believe she should have the baby so she can SUFFER the consequences.
Isn't that strange? Condoning suffering but promoting the prevention of suffering?
-AC
Yes, a pro-lifer WOULD think that, because harsh as it is to the woman, it is not right to kill the child to prevent it. Murder is the greater evil.
Originally posted by BackFire
I think that last part of your statement carries the most truth. I doubt anyone can logically say "There are too many kids up for adoption, so ending it's life is better for the child".
Well, I know there are many kids up for adoption, and that means there needs to be more adoptive parents, more foster families etc. But mostly I think it's because women won't accept responsiblity.
Originally posted by BackFire
But why? What kind of selfish, twisted and arguably evil, thought process is this? Why not just put it up for adoption?
Because the simply do not want to. You not liking it is your own problem.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You simply have to wrap your head around this point about it being murder and so the woman's choice is overridden by the right of any Human to be alive. That is the position of pro-life.
When it's proven to be a human, whether I disagree or not, I'll respect pro-lifers stances.
Until then it will seem completely irrational and stupid, selfish and hypocritical to me.
-AC
Then I would appreciate your views on this post, AC.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The problem is that we DO prevent abortions on the basis that they are murder.Non-emergency terminations are illegal after a given period of time in the pregnancy. Why? Not because it is too difficult, for sure. Chinese doctors happily abort 8-month year old babbies. Well, maybe not ALL of them happily, but they still do it, with a rather gruesome 'partial birth' aborion where the baby is semi-born, has its skull punctured and then has its brains hoovered out.
We can all agree that is wrong, but this is why Abortion is such a dangerous subject. We do not allow abortions after a given time period because we think that IS murder- that it would have developed by that point into a full human being.
But when IS that point? If you kill a child just after it is born, it is murder. obviously. If you killed it thirty seconds before it was born, still murder? Pretty much.
A day before? Yup. A week? Most likely.
A month? Two months? Six months? Six months and a day?
The times we have now for when it becomes illegal are completely arbitrary and have nothing to do with science, which is baffled as to how to accurately define a suitable point, or come up with some 'test of sentience' that determines when a foetus should be considered a human.
With science totally baffled, it is hard to criticise religious groups for thinking that the point of life is at exactly zero seconds after fertilisation. Frankly, it is as good a guess as any.
Some abortions- like in China- are DEFINITELY murder, and I worry that the vagueries of science mean that there is a lot of killing going on here.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's your opinion, and we still haven't established it as murder.-AC
Actually it's not my opinion at all, but it is THEIR opinion, and so your charges of hypocrisy or contradictory thought fail.
In a case like this, you would actually need to work to establish it is not murder before your case had greater validity.
Originally posted by Makedde
AC-A womans life won't be worse with a baby if she gives it up, she can just hand it over and get on with her life. The only problems a baby would cause is problems with her social life.
This is all "I don't get why she just wouldn't want adoption".
I'm not asking you to understand why, I'm asking you to realise that, like it or not, it happens and there's nothing you can do about it.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all "I don't get why she just wouldn't want adoption".I'm not asking you to understand why, I'm asking you to realise that, like it or not, it happens and there's nothing you can do about it.
-AC
We can ram contraception down the throats of the irresponsible. That might help.
Because the simply do not want to. You not liking it is your own problem.
That's incredibly stupid. So there is no valid reason for it, just because they're idioitic and would rather end a life rather then put it up for adoption. That's as far as their thinking goes?
It's extremely unnerving to think that such stupid people, who just don't like adoption "because..." have some control over whether a human being gets to live or not.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all "I don't get why she just wouldn't want adoption".I'm not asking you to understand why, I'm asking you to realise that, like it or not, it happens and there's nothing you can do about it.
-AC
We're discussing whether it SHOULD be done or not. Not whether it IS done or not.
We know this and you should too.
is it comprehensible.....
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually it's not my opinion at all, but it is THEIR opinion, and so your charges of hypocrisy or contradictory thought fail.In a case like this, you would actually need to work to establish it is not murder before your case had greater validity.
They have a right to think whatever they choose, this doesn't bestow upon them some mystical shield from hypocricy. Especially with regards to euthanasia.
I've not got the burden of proof, I'm for the woman doing whatever she wants with her foetus, I couldn't care any less. It's pro-lifers who are trying to tell me I'm wrong, which they can't do unless they can prove abortion is murder.
With regards to your post that you asked for my views on: If you leave it too late and abort the baby at partial birth, I can't say that I'm completely comfortable with it but I stand by my conviction that it's her baby, not mine. Doesn't affect me or my life so knock herself out.
-AC
With regards to your post that you asked for my views on: If you leave it too late and abort the baby at partial birth, I can't say that I'm completely comfortable with it but I stand by my conviction that it's her baby, not mine. Doesn't affect me or my life so knock herself out.
So then why be against capital punishment. Doesn't affect you or your life, why not just let them "knock themselves out" as well?
Originally posted by Makedde
We can ram contraception down the throats of the irresponsible. That might help.
No cure for idiocy, nor is it your responsibilty to interject into places of no business to you.
Originally posted by BackFire
That's incredibly stupid. So there is no valid reason for it, just because they're idioitic and would rather end a life rather then put it up for adoption. That's as far as their thinking goes?It's extremely unnerving to think that such stupid people, who just don't like adoption "because..." have some control over whether a human being gets to live or not.
Yes, in many cases. I'm not asking you to agree, condone or concede, but it happens. Some people choose abortion over adoption, it happens, accept it.
It's extremely unnerving that there are people who would try to force their beliefs on others, this is the bigger threat in my opinion.
Originally posted by powerfulone1987
nobody is debating whehter it happens or not, obviously it does or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, duh.We're discussing whether it SHOULD be done or not. Not whether it IS done or not.
We know this and you should too.
is it comprehensible....
Personally, speaking for myself, I'd rather abort the child than possibly having it show up later saying "I'm your daughter/son" and ****ing up the life I've worked for whilst also putting him/her through that shake-up.
That said, I hope you are all on the adoption list.
Infact, how many of you pro-lifers are on the adoption list? This is going to be fun.
-AC