Abortion

Originally posted by Bardock42
To some extend. To save members their own members from greater harm. Before you declare victory, a foetus is not a member of society.

Does society have the right to include or exclude anyone as human?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Does society have the right to include or exclude anyone as human?

Not against their will. Meaning they need to consent.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not against their will. Meaning they need to consent.

My point is, the individual lives their life by the grace of their society. So, to say that abortion is only a woman's choice, is not true. A woman enjoys this right only as long as her society affords that right.

Do you not see how obviously wrong that is?

Society saying "YOU can't do that with your body because WE believe collectively that it's wrong." As though we are all the same and have the same morals/beliefs.

Reminds me of that Bill Hicks part about movie test audiences editing out the lesbian scenes in Basic Instinct and people who WANTED to see them, didn't get to. Purely because a few collective people didn't like it.

It's stupid. Society has no right to take away that right nor make it their job to afford her it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you not see how obviously wrong that is?

Society saying "YOU can't do that with your body because WE believe collectively that it's wrong." As though we are all the same and have the same morals/beliefs.

It's stupid. Society has no right to take away that right nor make it their job to afford her it.

-AC

It can be very stupid, wrong and even evil, but it is a fact.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's wrong. Murder can be defined morally as well as legally. And even by a legal defintion, it is useless pedantcism to quibble on that point. The difference to this argument about whether it is legally murder or whether it is an immoral killing is zero

Sorry, but anyone saying in here that it is a 'fact' that abortion cannot be considered murder is wrong. That is still just your opinion. And the fact that some of you want to drag it to that level shows that you people have an infnatile mentality to the arguyment. Out in the big wide world where adults live, no-one is seriosuly dumb enough to advance the idea that you cannot argue that abortion is murder. They may think that opinion is incorrect, but not that it cannot be advanced.

This is the ENTIRITY of the debate, folks. Woman's rights, rape, birth control... none of it matters a tiny damn. The only thing that matters is whether the foetus is an actual human life or not. If it is not, then the woman can do whatever the hell she likes with it, for whatever reason. If it IS... then the woman has no right to kill it, no matter what- the foetus has the moral right to live, as all human life does (excepting the possibly of an abortion for medical reasons, which is very rare).

It's opinion. It is ALL opinion, about when a human life starts. All else is irrelevance.

There is no 'moral murder' except in an informal sense. The term murder describes a legal crime with a strict definition.

As the current UK law stands, it is indeed a fact that abortion can never be murder. This is the point I made, and like I said, it is a fact.

If people would like to alter what murder currently is to include abortions, that's their right, however it goes against what murder is, and has been, for over a hundred years.

Being a 'human' isn't relevant to UK murder law, and furthermore, it is a lawful procedure, so there is a double prevention on its being murder.

If this is changed, it might be: as we stand, it is factually never murder. The law is in a perfectly fine state at the moment, hence the last proper case on this point arising in about 1873.

So what's your point then, Shaky?

-AC

AC, are you saying that watching an abortion would be sexually arousing in the same manner as watching two women making out?

If you genuinely extracted that from my post, I fear for you.

-AC

Nah.

Point is it's a strange comparison, something so irreversibly ugly as abortion with something so wonderfully arousing as Sharon Stone commiting lesbionic acts.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So what's your point then, Shaky?

-AC

😱 I thought it was clear. The right of the individual does not trump the right of society. You have been telling a lot of people that it is none of their business, and you are wrong. All of these people together have a right that can over ride the right of the individual woman.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Wait, so...you propose living in the real world but...you then go on to say "Some places think it is legally murder"? You live in the UK, until you live in any of these other states or countries, that's the law you should be concerned with. Oh...of course, now you know it doesn't agree with you, it's a "global" thing. Love it, dig it.

Secondly, I don't care about many laws. I'm talking about UK law, you know? The real world where we "adults" live?

Many people thought Bush was/is a great president, many people think Ashlee Simpson is a very talented young performer. Many doesn't mean much if it's many idiots.

Legality is not a side-issue though. You seem to be trying to make it so.

-AC

Hmmm...

1.) I live in the U.S., so take that opinion and put my name as the one quoting it. Partial birth abortions are about to be banned here, and the regulars will come next. Then YOU will be the one saying the law could be wrong. 😉

2.)Of course you don't care about other laws, you're a dumb kid who lives with his parents, in your first or second year of college (you did admit to that earlier right?), and you can't see anything other than what is right in front of your own nose,... particularly anybody else's point of view/opinnion.

3) 😆 Are you serious? Name calling? Ashlee f*cking Simpson? Thats your "victory" in this debate? Anybody who believes that if a fetus is discovered to be both human and fully alive, and that a subsequent abortion of the fetus is murder,... is an idiot? An illogical MTV influenced dolt? 😂 STFU!

4.) The legality is a side issue. Laws can/have/ and will change as people's morals (feelings/opinions) on things change.

Slavery, a good example, ... women's voting rights another.

Take a good look at history my young friend, and you may find that we have made a few missteps in the modern era,.. things haven't all been "full steam ahead" in progress. Mistakes have been made, and they will be dealt with.

Despite foolish young people like yourself, who are just here to stir up crap.

Oh, and for your info.,.... niether myself nor Shaky were "shunted" by you and left this thread with our heads hanging.

We saw the pointlessness of talking with you, and decided to spend time elsewhere.

(where we dont have to deal with kids who argue and sputter, oblivious to the outside world, history, and morals.... and who say "You're just like all the other idiots who like Ashlee Simpson" when caught with their pants down.)

blow

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Once more, this pedantic quibbling about 'murder' is tiresomely childish. Murder or immoral killing, what the hell damn difference does it make? If the foetus really is a human life, it's still WRONG to kill it, despite what nomenclature you are using. Which should be obvious to anyone with common sense.

People should then use the term 'immoral killing', though. If people are going to wrongly claim it's murder, I don't see why the factual refutation is pedantic.

I think the main problem is that murder doesn't even need to be in this debate, yet it keeps arising. It would be more sensible to move into the more subjective area of immorality and the correctness of the abortion laws.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My point is, the individual lives their life by the grace of their society. So, to say that abortion is only a woman's choice, is not true. A woman enjoys this right only as long as her society affords that right.

No. she doesn't...she has that right, obviously society can say they don'T want it (they don't really have that right but they can), but the woman doesn't need to stick to it, she can still get an abortion and would be perfectly right.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Hmmm...

1.) I live in the U.S., so take that opinion and put my name as the one quoting it. Partial birth abortions are about to be banned here, and the regulars will come next. Then [B]YOU will be the one saying the law could be wrong. 😉

2.)Of course you don't care about other laws, you're a dumb kid who lives with his parents, in your first or second year of college (you did admit to that earlier right?), and you can't see anything other than what is right in front of your own nose,... particularly anybody else's point of view/opinnion.

3) 😆 Are you serious? Name calling? Ashlee f*cking Simpson? Thats your "victory" in this debate? Anybody who believes that if a fetus is discovered to be both human and fully alive, and that a subsequent abortion of the fetus is murder,... is an idiot? An illogical MTV influenced dolt? 😂 STFU!

4.) The legality is a side issue. Laws can/have/ and will change as people's morals (feelings/opinions) on things change.

Slavery, a good example, ... women's voting rights another.

Take a good look at history my young friend, and you may find that we have made a few missteps in the modern era,.. things haven't all been "full steam ahead" in progress. Mistakes have been made, and they will be dealt with.

Despite foolish young people like yourself, who are just here to stir up crap.

Oh, and for your info.,.... niether myself nor Shaky were "shunted" by you and left this thread with our heads hanging.

We saw the pointlessness of talking with you, and decided to spend time elsewhere.

(where we dont have to deal with kids who argue and sputter, oblivious to the outside world, history, and morals.... and who say "You're just like all the other idiots who like Ashlee Simpson" when caught with their pants down.)

blow [/B]

Amen.

is it comprehensible.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
No. she doesn't...she has that right, obviously society can say they don'T want it (they don't really have that right but they can), but the woman doesn't need to stick to it, she can still get an abortion and would be perfectly right.

What are you calling right? If it is illegal, she can be put in jail. I'm being very practical here, some mysterious universal right is trash if the society deems so.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What are you calling right? If it is illegal, she can be put in jail. I'm being very practical here, some mysterious universal right is trash if the society deems so.

I am saying that she can do whatever she pleases, ... that is obejectively right.

Now if we get back to subjectively, we can argue about our opinions forever, I think she should have the right, you think she shouldn't. What is the point?

Originally posted by BackFire
Nah.

Point is it's a strange comparison, something so irreversibly ugly as abortion with something so wonderfully arousing as Sharon Stone commiting lesbionic acts.

I was comparing how collective views that coincidentally agree all too often have say over those who don't.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I thought it was clear. The right of the individual does not trump the right of society. You have been telling a lot of people that it is none of their business, and you are wrong. All of these people together have a right that can over ride the right of the individual woman.

You've put the U-Haul before the minivan. They have the "right", but they shouldn't, because as we can all see, it's factually none of their business. It's nobody's business what anyone does in their own home or outside as long as nobody is coming to any unwanted harm.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Hmmm...

Here we go...

Originally posted by sithsaber408
1.) I live in the U.S., so take that opinion and put my name as the one quoting it. Partial birth abortions are about to be banned here, and the regulars will come next. Then YOU will be the one saying the law could be wrong.

Well you've said "about to" and "will come next" and "you will be..." etc. Until this happens, I suggest you zip it. Because you're running on hopes and dreams. Selfish, self-absorbed subjective hopes and dreams.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
2.)Of course you don't care about other laws, you're a dumb kid who lives with his parents, in your first or second year of college (you did admit to that earlier right?), and you can't see anything other than what is right in front of your own nose,... particularly anybody else's point of view/opinnion.

Oh! How unexpected! Personal attacks in the place of where a debate should be! Oh wait, no. I knew that was coming, how? Because in a few of your previous posts you've done the same due to not actually having a debate.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
3) Are you serious? Name calling? Ashlee f*cking Simpson? Thats your "victory" in this debate? Anybody who believes that if a fetus is discovered to be both human and fully alive, and that a subsequent abortion of the fetus is murder,... is an idiot? An illogical MTV influenced dolt? STFU!

Tsk, internet fanboy/girl abbreviations, you're in negative credibility now.

You're factually wrong on the murder count, so no point continuing that. Erm...let's see what else you said....oh yeah. My point was that many doesn't mean fact. Evidently you missed that like you miss everything.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
4.) The legality is a side issue. Laws can/have/ and will change as people's morals (feelings/opinions) on things change.

Again with the hopes and dreams. Live in the real world and we'll talk.

As of right now, everything is stacked against you and thankfully so. I really don't want a bunch of religious, archaic pushers running things and having says on what laws do and don't exist, what people can and cannot do.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Slavery, a good example, ... women's voting rights another.

Haha, completely different.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Take a good look at history my young friend, and you may find that we have made a few missteps in the modern era,.. things haven't all been "full steam ahead" in progress. Mistakes have been made, and they will be dealt with.

You've got a hundred years of abortion laws being viewed as fine to compete with, and in all honesty it doesn't look good for you people, thankfully.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Despite foolish young people like yourself, who are just here to stir up crap.

You're the one coming in here again and again with insults to mask the fact that you've got NOTHING else, given that I vapourised everything else you had.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Oh, and for your info.,.... niether myself nor Shaky were "shunted" by you and left this thread with our heads hanging.

Exactly.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
We saw the pointlessness of talking with you, and decided to spend time elsewhere.

Shaky's old enough to speak for himself champ, let him do so.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
(where we dont have to deal with kids who argue and sputter, oblivious to the outside world, history, and morals.... and who say "You're just like all the other idiots who like Ashlee Simpson" when caught with their pants down.)

When are you going to contribute to this thread with actual debate rather than "Hahhaha kid! You're such a dolt! Stupid kid!"?

Originally posted by powerfulone1987
clap

Amen.

is it comprehensible.....

"Sith! Sith! He's my man! If I can't do it, I'll cheer others who can!...I mean...can't...I mean..."

^ That's you, that's what you sound like.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
...Well you've said "about to" and "will come next" and "you will be..." etc. Until this happens, I suggest you zip it. Because you're running on hopes and dreams. Selfish, self-absorbed subjective hopes and dreams...

I wish you were right, but that is fantasy. Reality is, you are told what to do all of your life. Woman won this right to have abortions, but I think the tide is turning.

Such a lot of fighting. 😆

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and everyone is entitled to express there opinion.

If you believe abortion is murder, fine, if you don't, that's also fine, but don't go telling people who feel differently to you that their opinion is wrong. There is no right or wrong opinion.

If you are against the war in Iraq, doesn't mean everyone else has to be, it's your opinion, same as this. Just try to understand where the other side is coming from.