Abortion

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Neither does he, though he seems to think he can get off telling certain groups that they have no right to be involved in the decision, but that his points of view can. 😄

I think everybody should post their 2 cents, and I have said so in this thread.

He thinks that he can tell people to keep their noses out of everyones business, whilst having his own nose squarely in the debate.

(not to mention up his arrogant, juvenile ass where the rest of his head is.)

He is saying that no one has the right to tell the woman who wants an abortion what to do. He doesn't break that rule.

He doesn'T mean you can't post in this Thread, you just can't have a decision in the actual abortion.

[edit] And what is that supposed to mean:

Originally posted by meep-meep
🙄

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Yet you have managed to add about $6.00 worth of two cents in this thread since I resurrected it last week.

Keep on championing the cause that has nothing to do with you. 🙄

I'm not in here telling women what to do, or trying to. You are, and you had been shunted out of this thread ever since you resorted to pathetic, off topic insults as a result.

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to post, I said this previously, which you obviously skipped:

"Have your two cents, but don't give them to me unless I ask."

In other words, you're more than entitled to have any opinion you want on abortion, but as far as active abortion situations go, you have no right giving that opinion unless asked, or especially forcing it. I've told you before what happens when you come storming in like an idiot and mess things up for yourself by not reading the posts, and I don't wanna have to tell you again.

-AC

Originally posted by meep-meep
No, I completely disagree. Anyone has the right to add their two cents to any discussion whether that discussion is open to them or not. If the discussion has no way of affecting someone than it would be smart for that person or group to butt out. In the case of an abortion people everywhere have a say in the policy that surrounds it because well tax money goes into the implementation of it.Trying telling someone who pays taxes they can't have a say in what happens to their money. So if a couple or a women decides to have an abortion they will have to deal with other people whether they like it or not. Unless they or she can perform the abortion themselves or get it done by a privatized hospital, than I see no way that isn't a social issue.

You're proving my point.

If your whole problem ISN'T abortion but rather you paying for it, then that's fine with me. You don't wanna pay? Fine, I can deal with that. My point, which everyone seems to miss, is that overall you don't have the right to FORCE that opinion on an active abortion situation.

Do you have the right to possess that opinion? Yes, of course. The right to force it on someone? No, you do not.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Neither does he, though he seems to think he can get off telling certain groups that they have no right to be involved in the decision, but that his points of view can. 😄

I think everybody should post their 2 cents, and I have said so in this thread.

He thinks that he can tell people to keep their noses out of everyones business, whilst having his own nose squarely in the debate.

(not to mention up his arrogant, juvenile ass where the rest of his head is.)

Hey sabe I think That bardock person was just kiddin. I could be wrong though. 🙁

He wasn't, he's still a little sore, best to let the baby have his bottle though.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
He is saying that no one has the right to tell the woman who wants an abortion what to do. He doesn't break that rule.

He doesn'T mean you can't post in this Thread, you just can't have a decision in the actual abortion.

[edit] And what is that supposed to mean:

I assumed your little comment with the play on words from a previous poster was intended to poke fun at that original poster. Obviously, I was mistaken. Sorry, Saber.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're proving my point.

If your whole problem ISN'T abortion but rather you paying for it, then that's fine with me. You don't wanna pay? Fine, I can deal with that. My point, which everyone seems to miss, is that overall you don't have the right to FORCE that opinion on an active abortion situation.

Do you have the right to possess that opinion? Yes, of course. The right to force it on someone? No, you do not.

-AC

No, of course someone doesn't have the right to force their opnions on another person. Did I give you that impression? If I did, well maybe you could point it out. Never should someone try to force someone to do or not to dosomething they don't want.
And it's not my problem that people care about where their tax dollars go, that's just the way a society works.

You misinterpreted my reply to your comment that everyone is allowed their two cents. I agreed, but then I said you don't have the right to force that, which you again misinterpreted.

I suspect you didn't mean to do so maliciously, so I'm not bothered.

-AC

(been thinking)Oh yeah when i posted like 80 pages back, I forgot to say this. Ok, I don't think abortion should be illegal even if I strongly disagree with it. Alot of things that are illegal in this world(in certain places) I don't think it should be. Also you can not force people into doing what you want but just make them be aware of their actions.

Hmm, just saying I don't like it, I also dislike when people use it like every month as birth control, the numbers in the usa is just insane(and the reasons that they do it). Uh so yeah, the mother can do what she pleasesfor kicks or for serious issues if she wants.

Blame media for bringing personal issues of people into the living room, I think they have no right to do that...ok, i need some sleep bye.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
If that was an accepted medical practice here, then it would still not be murder. This is what people need to grasp- murder is a very specific crime. It's not just 'bad killing'.

No, that's wrong. Murder can be defined morally as well as legally. And even by a legal defintion, it is useless pedantcism to quibble on that point. The difference to this argument about whether it is legally murder or whether it is an immoral killing is zero

Sorry, but anyone saying in here that it is a 'fact' that abortion cannot be considered murder is wrong. That is still just your opinion. And the fact that some of you want to drag it to that level shows that you people have an infnatile mentality to the arguyment. Out in the big wide world where adults live, no-one is seriosuly dumb enough to advance the idea that you cannot argue that abortion is murder. They may think that opinion is incorrect, but not that it cannot be advanced.

This is the ENTIRITY of the debate, folks. Woman's rights, rape, birth control... none of it matters a tiny damn. The only thing that matters is whether the foetus is an actual human life or not. If it is not, then the woman can do whatever the hell she likes with it, for whatever reason. If it IS... then the woman has no right to kill it, no matter what- the foetus has the moral right to live, as all human life does (excepting the possibly of an abortion for medical reasons, which is very rare).

It's opinion. It is ALL opinion, about when a human life starts. All else is irrelevance.

Question for Captain Morality:

Who are you to say that it's ALL opinion, with regards to murder/abortion? The law (the same law you so readily said agreed with you) doesn't state it so. Before you retort with "Well the law is crap", it's still the law.

So I'm wondering where you get the authority to override the law. You seemed to stand right by it when you thought it agreed with you, now it's irrelevant? I smell hypocricy.

I also suggest you stop with the whole "My morals are your morals" routine. THAT'S also opinion, no matter how much you dislike that.

-AC

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This is why the moment life begins should be established as the commencement of heartbeat and electrical brainwave activity, and not fetal viability outside of the womb.

Yet abortion law has NOTHING to do with this.

And you say there is a consensus- yes there is, but the consensus is a GUESS.

And continually open to challenge. In fact, it is barely a consensus at all, merely a custom.

But Ush..there is no "moral" murder..it's just a legal term. So what you are implying is that the definition of murder should be changed. But since it isn't abortion cannot be murder.

Abortion law has nothing to do with abortion...? Can I ask how you worked that out?

Your opinion SEEMS to be: "The law is shit because it doesn't coincide with my opinion of murder, so change the law."

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Question for Captain Morality:

Who are you to say that it's ALL opinion, with regards to murder/abortion? The law (the same law you so readily said agreed with you) doesn't state it so. Before you retort with "Well the law is crap", it's still the law.

So I'm wondering where you get the authority to override the law. You seemed to stand right by it when you thought it agreed with you, now it's irrelevant? I smell hypocricy.

-AC

SOME laws don't. Some do. Certainly it is illegal here to abort at points that you seem to have no trouble with. Illegal just about everywhere except in oppressive, immoral regimes. That your thoughts are in step with them is hardly comforting.

Where did anti-slavery people get the authority to override the law? In case you haven;t noticed, AC, it is perfectly acceptable to call for something unjust to be made just.

I'm sorry you continually express extremely selfish opinions stating that you don't care about anything that does not involve you, but that's your bed you have to lie in. Some people have a social conscience and chose to so exercise their opinion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But Ush..there is no "moral" murder..it's just a legal term. So what you are implying is that the definition of murder should be changed. But since it isn't abortion cannot be murder.

That's your opinion. I think there IS moral murder and I think history shows this many, many times.

Did Germany murder Jews in World War II? I suspect they did, no matter what the law said.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Abortion law has nothing to do with abortion...? Can I ask how you worked that out?

Your opinion SEEMS to be: "The law is shit because it doesn't coincide with my opinion of murder, so change the law."

-AC

Abortion law has NOTHING to do with any medical definition of 'commencement of life'.

It's based entirely upon the point that foetuses used to be viable, on average.

So I was pointing out that Adam's criteria were not being followed, in response to his post.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's your opinion. I think there IS moral murder and I think history shows this many, many times.

Did Germany murder Jews in World War II? I suspect they did, no matter what the law said.

Noral Murder? That makes no sense. First murder is defined as a legal term. there's no definiton for a not legal murder. Then morals are subjective.

I am no lawyer, I am not sure if it's called murder. They certainly killed jews, but to be hinest, what does that have to do with anything.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
SOME laws don't. Some do. Certainly it is illegal here to abort at points that you seem to have no trouble with. Illegal just about everywhere except in oppressive, immoral regimes. That your thoughts are in step with them is hardly comforting.

Well we both live in the UK, here abortion isn't murder, at any point. So that about wraps that up.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Where did anti-slavery people get the authority to override the law? In case you haven;t noticed, AC, it is perfectly acceptable to call for something unjust to be made just.

You are calling for something unjust IN YOUR OPINION to be made legally just because that's how you want it. It doesn't change the fact that the law doesn't agree with you. Here, in the UK where the "adults" live, abortion isn't murder.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'm sorry you continually express extremely selfish opinions stating that you don't care about anything that does not involve you, but that's your bed you have to lie in. Some people have a social conscience and chose to so exercise their opinion.

Yes and you obviously have that right, but you seem to exercise this universal morality fantasy. I just happened to pop the bubble.

The law says abortion at any point is not murder here, at any point.

-AC

"Well we both live in the UK, here abortion isn't murder, at any point. So that about wraps that up."

But it IS considred morally wrong on grounds of terminating life at some point. Like I say, this is making the debate absurdly pedantic.

You cannot refute the case that it is posdible that abortion possibly SHOULD be murder because you cannot demonstrate that a foetus is definitely not a human life at a certain point. That's why you cannot state a factual shut down of debate here.

-

"You are calling for something unjust IN YOUR OPINION to be made legally just because that's how you want it. It doesn't change the fact that the law doesn't agree with you. Here, in the UK where the "adults" live, abortion isn't murder."

Actually, I am saying it is possible to make a case for it to be illegal on grounds that you should not kill a viable human being.

And in this case, the law agrees with ME, not you. You say you don't care about third trimester. UK law says that's illegal.

And once more... I have every right to call for something I think is unjust to be made just. Get used to that.

-

"Yes and you obviously have that right, but you seem to exercise this universal morality fantasy. I just happened to pop the bubble."

Fantasy in your opinion only. But irrelevant in any case- as the state makes the final decisions here, I again have the right to think the state should change its mind to the opinion of many other states, like Ireland. Liek it or not, the State DOES make a set decision about right or wrong, not leaving it relative as you wish.

-

But in any case, I do NOT actually call for a change in abortion law. I merely say the argument is viable. I also say that science MUST come up with an answer to the 'when does life start'? puzzle, as until then it is almost certain that some immoral killings are taking place out of ignorance.