Abortion

Okey Dokey.

I'm both Pro choice and Pro life. How is this possible you ask. Simple I am a proponent of the choices (multiple) that the unborn child would have been able to make had it been born.

Better said, I'm pro-responsibility. The timing of the choice is the place where Pro-abortion people and I disagree. I think that the choice is made before conception... not even at conception, but before it. Sex=chance of pregnancy. Any sex has that risk and pretty much everyone knows it. So what I'm saying is take responsibility for your actions. If I accidentally hit someone while I'm driving I have to pay for it. Same principle applies.

Oh, and I've seen the whole you can't be for Capital punishment and against abortion. That's baloney. It's a matter of what you value. If you blindly value life, then its true. If however you value the potential or meaning a person puts to their life. Then it is completely understandable.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I think Sith forgets to consider the opposite side of the argument.

Always a bad sign.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
A major argument behind pro-life is that abortions these days are used as freely as condoms; without much thought. Its just "well shes pregnant again lets just get an abortion." Then a half a year later: "Ooops, not again! Oh well, go get an abortion... 🧑‍⚕️" You see where Im going. Abortion IS technically murder on a smaller scale because that person is considered alive as soon as the embryo is created and killing it then is wiping off its chance at life, defying moral and ethical as well as spiritual values for usually selfish purposes. (minus medical or rape cases).

Heres the general idea i support: If you are taking actions that could result in a child, then you should be married and prepared for a child if it were to occur; not be relying on abortions as a cushion option for your problems.

Oh, and abortion is not murder. Why do you pro life people keep bringing this up despite being proven wrong time and time again?

Originally posted by soleran30
Here I'll even say it one more time for you, checks and balances in the govt apply to freedoms we enjoy today in the USA.

Nope here your opinion has been noted and filed away with those that are 100% opposite of your opinion.....................yeah ok, there you go.

I could not tell if you meant "limiting certain freedoms isn't always a bad thing" was my opinion. I asked you to clear that up for me. I can't even respond to you until I know what you were referring to.

Originally posted by soleran30
Offering choices to use certain freedoms need to be balanced with the consequences of taking chances. Its a whole risk vs reward system, no risk and to many unnecessary risks are taken and abused.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Hmmm.....

1940's-1960's: God in shcool, acknowledged as part of this country, under God in Pledge of Allegiance, sodomy and abortion illegal = Peace, prosperity and growth for America

1960's-present: No prayer in school, God in process of removed from country monuments, money, and pledge of allegiance, abortion legal, gay marriage on the way= AIDS, Columbine, 9/11......

Yeah, those dudes are WAY off base..... 😉

you can distract the issues all you want. But I would still like an answer to my accusations.

originally posted by The Black Ghost
Because it is clear to me that Christians are the only people these days with any values at all.

Woooo.. abortion is too bad.... I recently hared in the news about a woman who got his abortion stuff,she put this fetus inside the shoebox and wrapped it twice as it. And she place it and handed it to the security guard in the baggage are in the mall/// now that's human injustice!!!....

soulwinner_marissa

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Posted by Alpha Centauri: "It's a legal term, not a moral one (fact)"

--Where do you happen to be getting your facts from because there wouldnt be any opposition to abortion if there wasnt a moral problem with it. A major argument behind pro-life is that abortions these days are used as freely as condoms; without much thought. Its just "well shes pregnant again lets just get an abortion." Then a half a year later: "Ooops, not again! Oh well, go get an abortion... 🧑‍⚕️" You see where Im going. Abortion IS technically murder on a smaller scale because that person is considered alive as soon as the embryo is created and killing it then is wiping off its chance at life, defying moral and ethical as well as spiritual values for usually selfish purposes. (minus medical or rape cases).

Heres the general idea i support: If you are taking actions that could result in a child, then you should be married and prepared for a child if it were to occur; not be relying on abortions as a cushion option for your problems.

I didn't say there were no moral problems with abortions for some people, did I? No. I said murder is a legal term, not a moral one. Learn to read, please. Abortion has NOTHING to do with murder and that is a stone cold proven fact, many times over in this thread. If you want to call it something, call it "immoral killing". It's not murder, this is a fact. No matter how much anyone in this thread whines about it. Let's get to the issue at hand then:

The moral argument only comes in because people don't like the idea of some random human doing something with their own body that THEY dislike, despite it having absolutely nothing to do with them. You, like Sith, forget the opposite side of any argument and have such a warped, unbelievably inaccurate view of the world that you find it incomprehensible that anyone would want to have sex before marriage, and that they shouldn't.

The general idea you support is a ludicrous one.

-AC

I recently hared in the news about a woman who got his abortion stuff,

and for the rest of the story sounds like pro life propaganda BS, at public abortion clinics an hospitals this is not the case at all

"Would you care to elaborate on this "risk vs reward" system?"

Nope I cannot feed you everything, you need to figure it out on your own, its not hard really.

Originally posted by soulwinner
Woooo.. abortion is too bad.... I recently hared in the news about a woman who got his abortion stuff,she put this fetus inside the shoebox and wrapped it twice as it. And she place it and handed it to the security guard in the baggage are in the mall/// now that's human injustice!!!....

soulwinner_marissa

Originally posted by soleran30
"Would you care to elaborate on this "risk vs reward" system?"

Nope I cannot feed you everything, you need to figure it out on your own, its not hard really.

Truthfully, no risk vs reward system even matters here. It would not give you, me, or anyone else any right to stop a woman from doing what she wants with her body.....at ANY point.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Truthfully, no risk vs reward system even matters here. It would not give you, me, or anyone else any right to stop a woman from doing what she wants with her body.....at ANY point.

You should clarify yourself here. Risk vs reward doesn't matter to your opinion or point of view, however that doesn't take away its inherent value from others.

Originally posted by soleran30
You should clarify yourself here. Risk vs reward doesn't matter to your opinion or point of view, however that doesn't take away its inherent value from others.

If you know of a way it does matter, I will be glad to listen to(read) it.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Seeing as as how it will have no bearing on the right of the woman to abort, it has no real value in a debate on abortion. It is the same as religion or other morals. You can use it as your own justification but you can not force others to abide by those same beliefs.

If you know of a way it does matter, I will be glad to listen to(read) it.

See we actually live in a society where group morals decide societal rules or rather have a large impact on them. My morality and ethics help to impact those rules which in large enough numbers will force others to follow those rules or break them and pay the price.

So if I feel abortion is wrong and enough people feel the same way guess what societal rules change and abortion becomes "wrong."

You don't appear to feel that way fair enough, that doesn't mean you have the authority to tell anyone how or what to believe and how to influence others with that said belief.

Does that make it right? Who knows thats a very subjective term and words have a tendancy to change meaning and values over time. In summary to my dissertation there I believe women should have a right to choose up to 3rd trimester, also if the state pays for the abortion then it should be tracked (which it would be anyway via medical records) and limited if a behavior pops up as a red flag that its being used as a "birth control" method.

Originally posted by soleran30
See we actually live in a society where group morals decide societal rules or rather have a large impact on them. My morality and ethics help to impact those rules which in large enough numbers will force others to follow those rules or break them and pay the price.

So if I feel abortion is wrong and enough people feel the same way guess what societal rules change and abortion becomes "wrong."

You don't appear to feel that way fair enough, that doesn't mean you have the authority to tell anyone how or what to believe and how to influence others with that said belief.

Does that make it right? Who knows thats a very subjective term and words have a tendancy to change meaning and values over time. In summary to my dissertation there I believe women should have a right to choose up to 3rd trimester, also if the state pays for the abortion then it should be tracked (which it would be anyway via medical records) and limited if a behavior pops up as a red flag that its being used as a "birth control" method.

I never said morals did not influence laws. I said we do not have the RIGHT to force someone to abide by our beliefs. I DO have the authority to state the truth. That is exactly what I did. It is not my opinion.

You are correct about the goodness of abortion being subjective. Fortunately, that does not matter either. Until it infringes on the rights of another person, our right to tell the woman what to do with her body does not exist.

I also do not believe should be used as birth control either. This is why I suggested price be used as a deterrent. Everyone will stay within their rights and the abortion rate may fall as well.

Originally posted by StyleTime
An argument can be made that laws are merely in place to keep a society functioning and not because of the morals of the majority. That is a different thread though.

I never said morals did not influence laws. I said we do not have the RIGHT to force someone to abide by our beliefs. I DO have the authority to state the truth. That is exactly what I did. It is not my opinion.

You are correct about the goodness of abortion being subjective. Fortunately, that does not matter either. Until it infringes on the rights of another person, our right to tell the woman what to do with her body does not exist.

I also do not believe should be used as birth control either. This is why I suggested price be used as a deterrent. Everyone will stay within their rights and the abortion rate may fall as well.

You can argue about anything you want. You do have the right to state your belief which isn't the "truth" but rather what you believe and thats not always someone else's belief.

As far as the birth control part maybe you didn't read that in my last stance either. I suggest you go back and reread it as I still think people should get the benefit of the doubt and allow abortions unless a behavior is noticed and then they stop giving them (by the state to that individual.)Private abortion clinics fine by me pay the fee and get it done just follow the laws for the mothers protection. Regardless though the thrid trimester issue I spoke of is illegal in many states unless the health of the mother is at risk.

So in the end the majority did rule on that and it stands. You did describe a reward vs risk in your last paragragh and it stands true by your own words now as well. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
you can distract the issues all you want. But I would still like an answer to my accusations.

Even though they have nothing to do with abortion,

Alright Trebeck, you rouge, I'll play your game.

What are your accusations?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You, like Sith, forget the opposite side of any argument and have such a warped, unbelievably inaccurate view of the world that you find it incomprehensible that anyone would want to have sex before marriage, and that they shouldn't.

The general idea you support is a ludicrous one.

-AC

What you Styletime, Von Doom, and others don't seem to get is that I know VERY WELL what the opposite side of the argument is, I just choose not to agree with it.

How could I forget it? You cram it down my throat at every chance you get.

A woman can f*ck whoever she wants, when she wants, and if she gets pregnant.... oh well. She can end the life of the baby at will, at her leisure, as it is her choice to do so.

Nevermind that its a cost-free cop out of the responsibility that she should have to carry for having sex, we'll just let her do it.

And do it again next year, if needs be, and the following year, etc......

I know damn well what the opposite side of the argument is, and you may say that I'm warped if you wish, but I DON'T and WON'T support that side of it.

The general ideas YOU support are ludicrous.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
A woman can f*ck whoever she wants, when she wants, and if she gets pregnant.... oh well. She can end the life of the baby at will, at her leisure, as it is her choice to do so.

Well done, a couple of hundred pages in and you finally get it.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Nevermind that its a cost-free cop out of the responsibility that she should have to carry for having sex, we'll just let her do it.

Wow, you really do catch on fast don't you? From now on, I shall nickname you Lightning, on account of how fast you are.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
And do it again next year, if needs be, and the following year, etc......

Exactly.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I know damn well what the opposite side of the argument is, and you may say that I'm warped if you wish, but I DON'T and WON'T support that side of it.

You don't have to, nobody is asking you to. I don't agree with irresponsible abortions, but it's the woman's right to do that if she wants to. It's not my right to stop her...or yours.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The general ideas YOU support are ludicrous.

You clearly don't support, or believe anything ludicrous. By that, I do most definitely mean that everything you have said in this thread is ludicrous and stupid.

Do I need to reel off the Sithsaber List 'o Classics again? The most recent one being "Your body has no natural need to f*ck".

-AC

Originally posted by soleran30
You can argue about anything you want. You do have the right to state your belief which isn't the "truth" but rather what you believe and thats not always someone else's belief.

As far as the birth control part maybe you didn't read that in my last stance either. I suggest you go back and reread it as I still think people should get the benefit of the doubt and allow abortions unless a behavior is noticed and then they stop giving them (by the state to that individual.)Private abortion clinics fine by me pay the fee and get it done just follow the laws for the mothers protection. Regardless though the thrid trimester issue I spoke of is illegal in many states unless the health of the mother is at risk.

So in the end the majority did rule on that and it stands. You did describe a reward vs risk in your last paragragh and it stands true by your own words now as well. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I read what you wrote. The fact remains that we do not have the right to ban it.

I was not talking what the majority ruled. I was talking about the right to ban abortion and specifically our lack of said right.

The difference in my "risk vs reward" is that it has nothing to do with the legality of abortion. It would be perfectly within the rights of the people(doctors) to adjust the prices. Risk vs Reward still has no place concering the allowance of abortion.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Even though they have nothing to do with abortion,

Alright Trebeck, you rouge, I'll play your game.

What are your accusations?

If you know they have nothing to do with abortion, then you aren't totally unfamiliar with them, are you? Or, you're just wrong.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Clearly politics is one thing. Yes, I also choose the ideals to which I subscribe. But, what I'm addressing is your reason for choosing those points of view. It's your religion. You can babble on about getting on the city council and president and all that, but you don't seem to understand that is exactly my point. You pick and choose your religion and you pick and choose what aspects of your religion you want to follow. Don't you understand that is no different than choosing your politics? Don't you understand that by admitting the arbitrary nature of your religion, you totally invalidate it in the grand scheme of things? Not to mention the fact that baby Jesus has no place in politics.

I'd also add that I question your picking and chooseing abilities. If you condone birth control and stem cell research, then you reveal yourself to be a hypocrit. If you're okay with preventing human life from occuring with a condom but not with the morning after pill, then there's something wrong there. You're a self professed "neo-con". So religion is the very basis of your politics. And politics is the basis of your religion.

How different is preventing human life from ending it?

I agree with all parts of my religion.

You are simply interpereting certain scriptures to mean things that you think neccesitates me being for or against certain political points of view.

Sperm in a condom is not fertilized with an egg, therefore, not a human creature that has been formed.

Spilling it is not the same as abortion, since a child is not formed yet.

Preventing human life is=stopping the conception of a human, which is not a killing, since nothing has yet been formed to be killed.

Ending human life is killing becuase ......

(needs no explantion, you know that ending a concieved life is killing)