Abortion

Started by PVS787 pages
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I consider you someone, like many (so I'm not really having a go at you here), who doesn't have it in them to pick one and go all the way with it. Which is why there are problems.

funny, because i consider black and white "you're with us or you're against us" thinking to be the problem, in this and most other areas of politics. why is it causing a problem to have a genuine belief and stick to it? why do i have to compromise those beliefs to fit a pointless title? why does this pointless title hold so much weight?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, yes it does have an absolute meaning.

As you requested:

http://www.answers.com/topic/pro-life
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pro-life
http://www.miriamwebster.com/dictionary/pro-life

I'm pretty sure all of those say "Opposed to abortion."

Not "Opposed to abortion...oh, unless you agree with it." That's christian/catholic "Thou shalt not kill unless you want to" mentality. Coincidentally, a lot of pro-lifers are religious.

-AC


Okay... Wikipedia proves nothing but that pro-lifers think that abortion is wrong, doesn't mean they don't accept it in some circumstances.

Merriam Webster's dictionary doesn't even have a definition.

And dictionary.com says "Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion." which is a legal definition of the term, there are always loop-holes and exceptions to legal terms. As there will be if abortion becomes illegal in the US.
Maybe I'm not seeing it but does the definition of that website say or imply there are no exceptions?

Originally posted by Eis
Okay... Wikipedia proves nothing but that pro-lifers think that abortion is wrong, doesn't mean they don't accept it in some circumstances.

Merriam Webster's dictionary doesn't even have a definition.

And dictionary.com says "Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion." which is a legal definition of the term, there are always loop-holes and exceptions to legal terms. As there will be if abortion becomes illegal in the US.
Maybe I'm not seeing it but does the definition of that website say or imply there are no exceptions?

I didn't link to Wikipedia, there was just an article below it.

It does, you have to click it. Pro-life is the same as being anti-abortion, hence why they link you to it. EG: "See: *LINK*" and such.

As for the last one, you're wrong, simply. You are insisting that you can be pro-life despite being pro-some abortions. You can't. You factually cannot. "Prove it"? I gave you links, the links you requested and all of them state pro-life as opposing legalised abortion. Which would mean that they are illegal in ANY situation. South Dakota style.

Are there people who don't like abortion but accept it in some cases? Yes. These are not pro-lifers. Pro-lifers are against abortions no matter what, and the dictionary defines it as such. You were the one who so readily said to look it up, I did and proved you wrong. My job here is done. If you're not 100% against abortion, you're not of pro-life orientation.

You can continue the naive belief that there are pro-lifers who condone abortion if you like. Doesn't change the fact that pro-life means opposed to abortion.

-AC

If a woman cannot choose to terminate an unwanted
pregnancy, she is denied the right to the "possession and
control" of her own body. One of the most sacred rights of
common law is to choose and if a woman can't do this, then
her most important possession is taken away. Abortion isn't
only a woman's right, it's a woman's choice. If abortion is outlawed women will be forced to go to back-alley abortion clinics....don't forget about the rape case pregnancies and incest.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're confusing it and I honestly can't believe that this has to be explained.

If you claim to be pro-life but for SOME abortions, then you're not pro-life. You're just against certain types of abortion, not abortion as a whole. Liking what women choose doesn't need to come into it, because if you support their right to have an abortion at all, you're not pro-life.

So yeah, it's either pro-life or pro-choice. 310 pages in and we're finally getting somewhere...nowhere, I mean.

-AC


While I was referring to pro-abortion, I can see how your logic applies. So even going by what you say, that would still make me "pro-abortion in some cases" would it not? Keep in mind, I don't just mean believing abortion is right, but actually trying to get laws pass to REQUIRE abortion in the certain situations.
Originally posted by JustOwnin

wow. Is this JustOwnin from DOAcentral? The Hitomi player JustOwnin? FinalBossX JustOwnin? Do my eyes decieve me?

If you are truly JustOwnin, what brings you here to KMC?

The fundamental flaw in Jarvis' argument of the violinist is that it relies on the reader not to make the distinction between euthanasia and abortion. With the poor violinist, disconnecting oneself from him allows "nature to take its course". This would be a form of passive euthanasia, which many find acceptable. However, in the same situation, shooting the violinist in the head would NOT be considered acceptable.

This type of active euthanasia correlates more closely with abortion--one disrupts the course of the natural in order to kill the fetus. Because of this, the violinist example is farther removed from abortion that Jarvis pretends it is.

Her argument relies on the fact that the mother has no responsibility for the fetus. However, when does the mother have sufficient responsibility to make abortion wrong?

What about in rape/incest? Jarvis says 'no'.

What about in accidental pregnancy despite using contraceptives? Well, it's the woman's right to do with her body as she pleases, so sure, why not.

What about if the woman has normal, unprotected intercourse? Still her body.

What if the couple are trying to conceive? Better yet, what if the woman has in vitro fertilization? Has she taken enough responsibility yet, or is it still okay for her to have an abortion?

Jarvis also likens the fetus as to being an 'attacker' and abortion as being the woman's ability to defend herself from it. This turns the fetus from being helpless, completely dependent on the woman, into an oppressor who harms the woman carrying it. In this vein of thought, the fetus becomes nothing more than a parasite that leeches off of the body of the woman, and few have any issue with exterminating parasites.

To equate the fetus to a parasite is inexcusable. It is simply wrong. To declare a large portion of the process of reproduction as parasitism is...just wrong.

From a strictly biological sense, the fetus is a parasite. This is true. It leeches nutrients from the mother and causes her great discomfort in later stages of pregnancy.

However.

From a strictly biological sense, an infant is a parasite. It suckles from the mother, steals time and energy from her, and gives nothing in returns, save for its existence. Thus, an infant should be allowed to be exterminated with this school of thought.

As for the arguments that a fetus is not a human, that it does not share the basic characteristics of qualifying as human, one must realize that humanity is not some equation that can be formulated.

Let us say that there is a fox one meets upon the road. One is hopelessly lost, and the fox notices this. He sits up, asks one about one's dilemma, and gives one directions to the nearest town. He also invites one over for supper.

This fox, while not being human in appearance, is an example of 'humanity'. He is not human, per se, but it would be wrong to murder him because he is sentient, thinks, and communicates intelligibly.

Let us say that one arrives in the nearest town. The townspeople go out to greet one, but one quickly realizes that the inhabitants cannot speak. They communicate via a series of grunts and hand motions, though they are humans.

Once again, it would be wrong to murder these people. Though they cannot communicate intelligibly with us--or even complex thoughts--they are still human. So it is neither appearance nor the ability to communicate intelligibly that makes one human.

I could proceed to give other examples, but I assume that one sees where I am heading with this. In fact, one probably agrees--it is a combination of characteristics that makes one a 'human' or part of 'humanity'.

One may also say that a fetus possesses none of these.

A fetus is not self-aware.
A fetus does not communicate intelligibly.
A fetus does not think.
A fetus does not have emotions.
A fetus does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a fetus should not be counted as a human.

But, what about a comatose person--a human who has been unconscious and will remain unconscious for an indefinite period of time.

He is not self-aware.
He does not think. (Though he may have brain activity, he is not thinking.)
He does not communicate intelligibly.
He does not have emotions.
He does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a comatose person should not be a human or part of humanity.

One may argue that the comatose person will someday recover from the coma and have all characteristics of being human. Will not a fetus one day have all the characteristics of being human? Why would it be wrong to kill the comatose person but acceptable to kill the fetus, then? Both are technically not humans, according to the list of characteristics.

One may also argue that the comatose person already was a human and one cannot lose one's humanity. Fair enough. But, from the list of characteristics, it would certainly seem that the comatose person no longer was human. From an extremely emotionally detached viewpoint, the comatose person is not a human--the same viewpoint from which fetuses are viewed. Clinically, that is.

The idea of humanity is a man-created one. To apply it to one case that does not meet the requisites for being human but not to apply to a different case undermines the nature of it.

As is such, abortion not only is wrong, but it is the murder of the unborn.

Originally posted by FeceMan

One may also say that a fetus possesses none of these.

A fetus is not self-aware.
A fetus does not communicate intelligibly.
A fetus does not think.
A fetus does not have emotions.
A fetus does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a fetus should not be counted as a human.

But, what about a comatose person--a human who has been unconscious and will remain unconscious for an indefinite period of time.

He is not self-aware.
He does not think. (Though he may have brain activity, he is not thinking.)
He does not communicate intelligibly.
He does not have emotions.
He does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a comatose person should not be a human or part of humanity.

That's a good point; who is more "deserving" of life then another?

Originally posted by FeceMan
The fundamental flaw in Jarvis' argument of the violinist is that it relies on the reader not to make the distinction between euthanasia and abortion. With the poor violinist, disconnecting oneself from him allows "nature to take its course". This would be a form of passive euthanasia, which many find acceptable. However, in the same situation, shooting the violinist in the head would NOT be considered acceptable.

This type of active euthanasia correlates more closely with abortion--one disrupts the course of the natural in order to kill the fetus. Because of this, the violinist example is farther removed from abortion that Jarvis pretends it is.

Suppose a pregnant woman receives a prenatal diagnoses that her full-term, gestational age fetus will die during delivery. By your reasoning, it is acceptable for her to have an abortion performed because it coincides with nature taking its course.

Whether or not many would find unplugging oneself from the famous unconscious violinist to be acceptable, does not affect whether or not one has a moral obligation to remain plugged into the famous unconscious violinist.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Her argument relies on the fact that the mother has no responsibility for the fetus. However, when does the mother have sufficient responsibility to make abortion wrong?

What about in rape/incest? Jarvis says 'no'.

What about in accidental pregnancy despite using contraceptives? Well, it's the woman's right to do with her body as she pleases, so sure, why not.

What about if the woman has normal, unprotected intercourse? Still her body.

What if the couple are trying to conceive? Better yet, what if the woman has in vitro fertilization? Has she taken enough responsibility yet, or is it still okay for her to have an abortion?

Her argument is not that the woman has no responsibility to the fetus, but that the right to bodily integrity of the woman is more stringent than the right to life of the fetus.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Jarvis also likens the fetus as to being an 'attacker' and abortion as being the woman's ability to defend herself from it. This turns the fetus from being helpless, completely dependent on the woman, into an oppressor who harms the woman carrying it. In this vein of thought, the fetus becomes nothing more than a parasite that leeches off of the body of the woman, and few have any issue with exterminating parasites.

To equate the fetus to a parasite is inexcusable. It is simply wrong. To declare a large portion of the process of reproduction as parasitism is...just wrong.

From a strictly biological sense, the fetus is a parasite. This is true. It leeches nutrients from the mother and causes her great discomfort in later stages of pregnancy.

However.

From a strictly biological sense, an infant is a parasite. It suckles from the mother, steals time and energy from her, and gives nothing in returns, save for its existence. Thus, an infant should be allowed to be exterminated with this school of thought.

par·a·site n. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered in or on another organism while contributing nothing to the survival of the host.

Originally posted by FeceMan
As for the arguments that a fetus is not a human, that it does not share the basic characteristics of qualifying as human, one must realize that humanity is not some equation that can be formulated.

Let us say that there is a fox one meets upon the road. One is hopelessly lost, and the fox notices this. He sits up, asks one about one's dilemma, and gives one directions to the nearest town. He also invites one over for supper.

This fox, while not being human in appearance, is an example of 'humanity'. He is not human, per se, but it would be wrong to murder him because he is sentient, thinks, and communicates intelligibly.

Let us say that one arrives in the nearest town. The townspeople go out to greet one, but one quickly realizes that the inhabitants cannot speak. They communicate via a series of grunts and hand motions, though they are humans.

Once again, it would be wrong to murder these people. Though they cannot communicate intelligibly with us--or even complex thoughts--they are still human. So it is neither appearance nor the ability to communicate intelligibly that makes one human.

I could proceed to give other examples, but I assume that one sees where I am heading with this. In fact, one probably agrees--it is a combination of characteristics that makes one a 'human' or part of 'humanity'.

One may also say that a fetus possesses none of these.

A fetus is not self-aware.
A fetus does not communicate intelligibly.
A fetus does not think.
A fetus does not have emotions.
A fetus does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a fetus should not be counted as a human.

But, what about a comatose person--a human who has been unconscious and will remain unconscious for an indefinite period of time.

He is not self-aware.
He does not think. (Though he may have brain activity, he is not thinking.)
He does not communicate intelligibly.
He does not have emotions.
He does not have higher mental functions.
Etc.

Therefore, a comatose person should not be a human or part of humanity.

One may argue that the comatose person will someday recover from the coma and have all characteristics of being human. Will not a fetus one day have all the characteristics of being human? Why would it be wrong to kill the comatose person but acceptable to kill the fetus, then? Both are technically not humans, according to the list of characteristics.

One may also argue that the comatose person already was a human and one cannot lose one's humanity. Fair enough. But, from the list of characteristics, it would certainly seem that the comatose person no longer was human. From an extremely emotionally detached viewpoint, the comatose person is not a human--the same viewpoint from which fetuses are viewed. Clinically, that is.

The idea of humanity is a man-created one. To apply it to one case that does not meet the requisites for being human but not to apply to a different case undermines the nature of it.

There are two fundamental differences between the sentient fox, the mute townspeople, and the comatose person in your examples, and a fetus:

[list=1][*]The sentient fox, the mute townspeople, and the comatose person are existent persons, whereas the fetus is a potential person.

[*]The sentient fox, the mute townspeople, and the comatose person are not growing, feeding, and being sheltered inside another organism.[/list]

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't link to Wikipedia, there was just an article below it.

It does, you have to click it. Pro-life is the same as being anti-abortion, hence why they link you to it. EG: "See: *LINK*" and such.

As for the last one, you're wrong, simply. You are insisting that you can be pro-life despite being pro-some abortions. You can't. You factually cannot. "Prove it"? I gave you links, the links you requested and all of them state pro-life as opposing legalised abortion. Which would mean that they are illegal in ANY situation. South Dakota style.

Are there people who don't like abortion but accept it in some cases? Yes. These are not pro-lifers. Pro-lifers are against abortions no matter what, and the dictionary defines it as such. You were the one who so readily said to look it up, I did and proved you wrong. My job here is done. If you're not 100% against abortion, you're not of pro-life orientation.

You can continue the naive belief that there are pro-lifers who condone abortion if you like. Doesn't change the fact that pro-life means opposed to abortion.

-AC


Considering the only two other definitions in answers.com were the same than the one you linked to dictionary.com it was safe to assume you were referring to wikipedia.

Wait, are you suggesting antiabortion means exactly the same as pro-life? Cause that is simply wrong...

About the last one I think you might be right, although I still will consider someone who's against abortions unless the woman's life's at stake a pro-lifer, technically I believe you are correct.

So, maybe I was looking at the issue too simply? There are more than two sides? Because surely you agree someone who's against abortion unless the mother's life is at stake does not fall under the pro-choice category.

But, what about a comatose person--a human who has been unconscious and will remain unconscious for an indefinite period of time.

That's a good point.

Pull the plug on the freeloaders.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That's a good point; who is more "deserving" of life then another?

The one who has a life, probably. IE: The human already alive, with loved ones. Not what is- more or less- a lump of would-be-if-allowed flesh and organs. A parasite by definition. "Aww don't call it a parasite." It is, though.

Originally posted by Eis
Considering the only two other definitions in answers.com were the same than the one you linked to dictionary.com it was safe to assume you were referring to wikipedia.

No, there were dictionary definitions there. The definition being "Opposed to abortion."

Originally posted by Eis
Wait, are you suggesting antiabortion means exactly the same as pro-life? Cause that is simply wrong...

Not "exactly". Pro-life is being opposed to abortion being legalised and resultantly practiced. Anti-abortion is being...against abortion.

Originally posted by Eis
About the last one I think you might be right, although I still will consider someone who's against abortions unless the woman's life's at stake a pro-lifer, technically I believe you are correct.

So, maybe I was looking at the issue too simply? There are more than two sides? Because surely you agree someone who's against abortion unless the mother's life is at stake does not fall under the pro-choice category.

That's what I said earlier. I agree that if you want to get into it, it's more simple than two choices (Those being pro-life or pro-choice). However, pro-life is not a flexible belief by concept. It means opposed to the legalisation and practicing of- abortion, in any case.

If you believe that abortion is totally wrong, except if the mother's life is at stake, then you are not purely pro-life. To be a pro-lifer you must be anti-abortion. By that rationale, everyone is a bit pro-life when it comes to abortion. Which is just false. I couldn't care less and I know there are a great many people who share my opinion.

There are people who are pro-choice, as in...entirely for the woman's choice regardless (that means totally). Also there are pro-lifers, who I have defined. Anyone in between (such as PVS) who adhere to their own belief, which is fine, would be uncatagorised I guess.

My whole point with the "You're either pro-life or you're not" remark was just as I've explained above. You can't be pro-life and for abortions. Just like you can't really be pro-choice (by definition) and against a woman's right to choose. You would be somewhere in the middle. Not rational by any means, but that's humans for you. It doesn't have to be "rational" for it to be understandable. Which is why, though I disagree, I understand where PVS comes from.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
Still, why shouldn't they have the right to abort?

im just saying its wrong because its like your killing someone when you can go and give it to someone that wants a child a child.

BabyGirl23's back in the house. Who's turn is it to distract Miss Omega?

Originally posted by BabyGirl_23
im just saying its wrong because its like your killing someone when you can go and give it to someone that wants a child a child.

yE NO; I JUST SAYIng its th womans desicion.

Oh, and it isn't exactly killing someone since fetuses aren't actually someone.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All the girls in your school get themselves pregnant? Sweet! Now it really is their choice. Especially with no father to have a say.

A-sexual reproduction may save us yet.

-AC

no its not sweet because they go and get an abortion and kill a little child when the baby has no say in that i think is wrong just because some one made a bad decision.

Originally posted by Bardock42
yE NO; I JUST SAYIng its th womans desicion.

Oh, and it isn't exactly killing someone since fetuses aren't actually someone.

they turn into a baby dont they?

Originally posted by botankus
BabyGirl23's back in the house. Who's turn is it to distract Miss Omega?

LOL!! 😉 😄

Originally posted by BabyGirl_23
they turn into a baby dont they?

Yeah...maybe...turns into a baby. But it isn't just yet. That's the point of abortion. To stop it from turning into a baby. Get it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah...maybe...turns into a baby. But it isn't just yet. That's the point of abortion. To stop it from turning into a baby. Get it?

but it could be a baby if they just go through with the birth and give it to some one that wants it.
un like the stupid girls that get themselves pregnant when they dont want to be pregnant.
they should just not have sex if they dont want to be pregnant.

Originally posted by BabyGirl_23
but it could be a baby if they just go through with the birth and give it to some one that wants it.
un like the stupid girls that get themselves pregnant when they dont want to be pregnant.
they should just not have sex if they dont want to be pregnant.

But it isn't a baby. So it doesn't matter. If they don't want it to turn into a baby they have the right to not let it turn into a baby.