Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
This going around in circles thing is fun. I did NOT say "kill all the small children because they can't help society" and if you can find where I said that I'll give you a cookie.
OK, it was like this
My question was like that
What makes you better than not born children that you deserve to have life but they don't.
Your answer was "I help society". This automatically means that by your logic whoever does not help society does not deserve to live.
Originally posted by ArachnoidfreakYou are so naive. You really believe that she will suffer after abortion? She would go have sex again and she would be as careless as last time.
"Ignorance" doesn't mean ignoring your post. So I was right to call you an idiot. Be sure to read the definition of a word you don't know.So if someone is not careful that means they automatically have the ability to raise a child? Do you understand what kind of responsibility it takes to raise a child? If she wasn't responsible enough to have safe sex, do you think she DESERVES to have the child? No. And she shouldn't be forced to go through 20 hours of labor as punishment, I think knowing the fact that she just snuffed out a potential life would be punishment enough.
Originally posted by ArachnoidfreakBaby never asked to be born so it's forcing? So you can't know if he wants or don't to live life so the most fair would be to let him a choise atleast. Forcing is getting rid of him before he was born.
Yes it is more fair. The mother exists and is here now, the fetus thing isn't. The priority should be people that are here now. The baby never asked to be born or even conceived, so yes, it is forcing it to be born.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
English isn't your first language is it? If the fetus is aborted, it's dead. My words make perfect sense.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
They aren't children, they're unborn fetuses. Children don't have the right to choose anything in society until they're 16-18 anyway, everything is decided for them. I don't get why this seems like a horrifying concept to you. I'm not pretending about anything. The problem with people is that they think too much of the goddamn future. **** the future. You're here, NOW. The future depends on what you do NOW. Don't ruin the woman's life NOW because you want the fetus to be born in the future.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You keep saying it should have a chance to succeed, but you're also giving it the possibility to grow up to be a murderer, child molester, rapist, theif, etc. The possibilities aren't all positive. Save a fetus from abortion now, and have the same guy rob and rape you 15 years later.
By this logic we must kill all fetuses because they MIGHT become rapists or murderers. I only suugest to give them a chance to live.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
No, you aren't talking about world population. "many countries" is NOT the entire planet. The world population grows by one every 3 seconds. Lets do the math for you. +1 for every 3 seconds, and -1 for every 8 seconds. Lets multiply them so that they are equal values, 24 seconds. In 24 seconds 8 people will be born. Also in 24 seconds, 3 people will die. 8-3=5. FIVE new people every 24 seconds, including the death rate. Without the millions of abortions each year, the population would skyrocket, possibly to 8-10 people every 24 seconds.That's not overpopulation?
"Many countries" are example for what moving other countries, so want it or not but it connected to entire planet. You only gave modern facts. But you forgot what IS going to happen. Statistics says that amount of deathes soon may become bigger than amount of born children.
Originally posted by Sam Z
OK, it was like this
My question was like that
What makes you better than not born children that you deserve to have life but they don't.
Your answer was "I help society". This automatically means that by your logic whoever does not help society does not deserve to live.
Tote Haut auf dem Körper ist dieselbe wie ein menschliches Ei Sie!!!
Hagel Hitler!!!
Originally posted by Sam Z
You are so naive. You really believe that she will suffer after abortion? She would go have sex again and she would be as careless as last time.
Ja und ich seien Sie das, zum des Weibchens zu entbeinen. Ich interessiere nicht mich für, was sie danach so lang tut, wie ich erhalte, was ich wünsche. Hagel Hitler!!!
Originally posted by Sam Z
Baby never asked to be born so it's forcing? So you can't know if he wants or don't to live life so the most fair would be to let him a choise atleast. Forcing is getting rid of him before he was born.It took you 5 pages of debates to realise that english is not my first language. And you call ME stupid after that.
LOL "**** the future" Says the guy who wants to prevent overpopulation by getting rid of fetuses. Why? Isn't overpopulation is a possible future problem?
By this logic we must kill all fetuses because they MIGHT become rapists or murderers. I only suugest to give them a chance to live.
Jeder in Amerika erleidet das gleiche Schicksal bald. Hagel Hitler!!!
Originally posted by Sam Z
"Many countries" are example for what moving other countries, so want it or not but it connected to entire planet. You only gave modern facts. But you forgot what IS going to happen. Statistics says that amount of deathes soon may become bigger than amount of born children.
Sie sind von der Scheiße voll, gibt es keine guten oder Übel. Das Übel besteht nur in Ihrem Verstand. Die Deutschen beleben bald hitler wieder und wir ordnen die Welt wieder an. Nichts stoppt uns erstes KMC und dann die Welt Mwahahahahaha!!!!
Hagel Hitler!!!
Originally posted by Goku69
Tote Haut auf dem Körper ist dieselbe wie ein menschliches Ei Sie!!!Hagel Hitler!!!
"Dead skin on the body is that like a human egg you!!
Hail Hitler"
Ja und ich seien Sie das, zum des Weibchens zu entbeinen. Ich interessiere nicht mich für, was sie danach so lang tut, wie ich erhalte, was ich wünsche. Hagel Hitler!!!
"Let you be yes and I that to bone to that of the female. I am not interested in, what so long does it after that, how I receive, what I wish. Hail Hitler"
Jeder in Amerika erleidet das gleiche Schicksal bald. Hagel Hitler!!!
"Each in America will suffer the same fate soon. Hail Hitler"
Sie sind von der Scheiße voll, gibt es keine guten oder Übel. Das Übel besteht nur in Ihrem Verstand. Die Deutschen beleben bald hitler wieder und wir ordnen die Welt wieder an. Nichts stoppt uns erstes KMC und dann die Welt Mwahahahahaha!!!!Hagel Hitler!!!
"They are full of the shit, gives it no good or evil. The evil exists only in your intellect. The German revives soon Hitler and we arrange the world again. Does nothing stop us first KMC and then the world Mwahahahahaha!!!
Hail Hitler!!"
The translation isn't perfect, I used an online free translation program, but you get the idea what this fool is saying, "Mommy didn't love me, daddy raped me up the ass and I feel guilty that I enjoyed it, hiel Hitler." He's just an angry kid is all.
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
And you should respect PVS. He knows more than you do obviously. Your whole argument on the matter, including your opinion, is "supportless." Abortion is not wrong, and neither is it right. It has been stated more than enough times that abortion is all due to an individuals point of view. My point of view is that it's totally illogical to say that it's either wrong or right because no one has any memories from when he or she was a foetuse, therefore you cannot relate to the feelings or understandings of a foetuse growing in a woman's body because you have no remembrance of it, therefore you cannot know that a foetuse has thoughts or feelings. I can't remember getting circumcised let alone remember floating in my mother's womb. In any case, the decisions are up to the woman carrying the foetuse to make. No one elses.
If Abortion is neither right or wrong, then NOTHING is right or wrong.
You can't say Abortion is not a moral matter, and then say that Death Penalty, murder, euthanasia, etc. are.
They are as right or wrong as people beleive them to be. Every issue dealing with life and death is a moral issue.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If Abortion is neither right or wrong, then NOTHING is right or wrong.You can't say Abortion is not a moral matter, and then say that Death Penalty, murder, euthanasia, etc. are.
They are as right or wrong as people beleive them to be. Every issue dealing with life and death is a moral issue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it that person you responded too saying that abortion is ok because the fetus will have no memory and be oblivious to it's own death? WTF?
Abortion is never an easy decision, but women have been making that choice for thousands of years, for many good reasons. Whenever a society has sought to outlaw abortions, it has only driven them into back alleys where they became dangerous, expensive, and humiliating. Amazingly, this was the case in the United States until 1973, when abortion was legalized nationwide. Thousands of American women died. By your own admission, for every 1 (one) woman that died or was maimed when abortions were illegal, thousands of babies are being murdered. For this reason and others, women and men are fighting for the right of babies to live.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If Abortion is neither right or wrong, then NOTHING is right or wrong.You can't say Abortion is not a moral matter, and then say that Death Penalty, murder, euthanasia, etc. are.
They are as right or wrong as people beleive them to be. Every issue dealing with life and death is a moral issue.
First, the argument that abortion is either right or wrong comitts the logic fallacy of False Dichotomy. It is possible that abortion is right in some instances and wrong in others, or that abortion is simply a necessary medical procedure and therefore morally neutral, etc.
Furthermore, are you not the person who argued that a woman has a right to choose to have an abortion despite believing abortion to be immoral? I find it interesting that you are now arguing that abortion is a right or wrong issue when you have been arguing all along that abortion is a "gray issue."
Moreover, there is no relationship between whether or not abortion is a moral dichotomy and whether or not moral dichotomies exist. To claim that if abortion is not right or wrong then nothing is right or wrong is asinine.
You need to decide whether you are arguing that morality is subjective or whether morality is absolute, and get back to us.
Originally posted by Sam Z
OK, it was like this
My question was like that
What makes you better than not born children that you deserve to have life but they don't.
Your answer was "I help society". This automatically means that by your logic whoever does not help society does not deserve to live.
You're fun to debate with because you don't get it, but you're also not fun to debate with because you just dont get it.
I have more reasons to allow abortion than 'I help society' but you just aren't understanding them, or just ignoring them. Why do you not understand "Help the children that are already born" WHY!? What language do you speak, maybe I should ****ing translate it for you.
You are so naive. You really believe that she will suffer after abortion? She would go have sex again and she would be as careless as last time.
No, YOU'RE naive. I actually know women who have had abortions. It's a hard decision to make and it haunts them all the time. That doesn't mean they're going to stop living their lives though. You've pissed me off at this point.
Baby never asked to be born so it's forcing? So you can't know if he wants or don't to live life so the most fair would be to let him a choise atleast. Forcing is getting rid of him before he was born.
He doesn't want anything, he doesn't even have a damn brain before he's aborted. You're really trying too hard to make people have pity for the fetus.
It took you 5 pages of debates to realise that english is not my first language. And you call ME stupid after that.
No, I had a guess after the first few posts, but I figured you made a few typos. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt really.
LOL "**** the future" Says the guy who wants to prevent overpopulation by getting rid of fetuses. Why? Isn't overpopulation is a possible future problem?
No, overpopulation is a problem NOW. When ONE country has 1/6th of the entire world's population, it's a problem.
By this logic we must kill all fetuses because they MIGHT become rapists or murderers. I only suugest to give them a chance to live.
No, I was refuting your argument of 'but they might be presidents or actors or blah blah blah', I was using YOUR logic, so dont give me that shit.
"Many countries" are example for what moving other countries, so want it or not but it connected to entire planet. You only gave modern facts. But you forgot what IS going to happen. Statistics says that amount of deathes soon may become bigger than amount of born children.
Many countries is NOT the WHOLE planet. Why do you not understand that? And statistics DOESN'T say that the amount of deaths will become larger than the amount of births. I want you to quote any and all sources that say that bullshit.
Fact is that during war, there are actually MORE births, because when a soldier comes home from fighting, what does he want to do with his wife/girlfriend? Make babies.
This is the last post of yours that I'm replying too. You aggrivate me with your refusal to accept hard facts(i.e. world population statistics), refusal to understand my points, and plain ignorance on the effect that an abortion has on a woman.
First, the argument that abortion is either right or wrong comitts the logic fallacy of False Dichotomy. It is possible that abortion is right in some instances and wrong in others, or that abortion is simply a necessary medical procedure and therefore morally neutral, etc.
I beleive it to be neutral in cases where the mother was raped or where the fetus threatens her life.
Furthermore, are you not the person who argued that a woman has a right to choose to have an abortion despite believing abortion to be immoral? I find it interesting that you are now arguing that abortion is a right or wrong issue when you have been arguing all along that abortion is a "gray issue."
Yes, I do feel it is the mother's choice even though I think Abortion is wrong in most cases. I'm not repeating my stance on that, so please. And yes i do feel it is a grey issue because no matter what, the woman is the one who has to suffer the child birth and have her body disfigured, not me or you. I'm not arguing that Abortion is a right or wrong issue. I am arguing that it is an issue SUBJECT to being called right or wrong or neutral, and not independent of moral judgement. Abortion like ALL issues is a moral one as well as a scientific, logic, religious, etc.
Moreover, there is no relationship between whether or not abortion is a moral dichotomy and whether or not moral dichotomies exist. To claim that if abortion is not right or wrong then nothing is right or wrong is asinine.
And how so? Can you come up with proof that Abortion is an issue independent of morality? Sorry bro, bad argument 👇
EVERY ISSUE is subject to being labelled as right or wrong. Abortion is no exception.
You need to decide whether you are arguing that morality is subjective or whether morality is absolute, and get back to us.
I've already made my stance on this clear in other threads. Morality is always subjective, but that does NOT lessen it as a reality, and like I said in the Philosophy forums, I don't thnk an "absolute" can be proven to be so as of now.
My POINT is someone said that Abortion isn't right or wrong, it is just an action nothing more nothing less, and that i feel is WRONG. Abortion, like everything else, is subject to moral intepretation and judgement, as is every issue concerning life or death.
Yes, but you said yourself morals are subjective. The fact that it's open to interpretation doesn't mean that abortion is right or wrong, it is right for some people and wrong for others. Sorry, but your word that it is 'wrong' isn't absolute, as you said yourself. Therefore making whatever statement you make about it being 'wrong' just about null and void. And since your entire argument is based on the fact that it is morally wrong, the basis of your argument crumbles along with the rest of it.
Abortion is neither right or wrong BECAUSE morals are subjective.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Yes, but you said yourself morals are subjective. The fact that it's open to interpretation doesn't mean that abortion is right or wrong, it is right for some people and wrong for others. Sorry, but your word that it is 'wrong' isn't absolute, as you said yourself. Therefore making whatever statement you make about it being 'wrong' just about null and void. And since your entire argument is based on the fact that it is morally wrong, the basis of your argument crumbles along with the rest of it.Abortion is neither right or wrong BECAUSE morals are subjective.
Hello..if my argument that Abortion is wrong is null and void, they so is everyone else's argument that Abortion is right. You can't just be one or the other, if wrong and right don't exist, then NEITHER exist...not just one or the other. Nice try 👇
Morals may be subjective, but it is widely beleived that they are ALSO intuitive. LEt me not go off subject though....just because Morality is an aspect of our emotion and logic, does not mean that morality is non-existant.
Morality is as REAL as anyone believes it to be. And as long as ONE person has a sense of morality, then it is REAL to someone, and therefore EXISTS....damn man...you act as if things are ONLY TRUE if they are physically existant...as if something that exists in the mind is unreal or less credible. Mental existances are just as valid as physical existances...ok?
AS long as human beings exist, so will morality, because emotion and logic are both factors that every human being inhibits, regardless of in which sections the bias lies. Abortion IS a moral issue, JUST LIKE everything else concerning life and death are.
Again nice try 👇
AS long as there is a point of view, there is then judgement and morality as well. If Abortion is neutral than SO is the Death Penalty, so is banning gay marriage, so is limitting freedom of speech, etc.etc.etc.
If "right and wrong" don't exist in Abortion, then they do NOT exist ANYWHERE else either.
By your own admission, abortion may be neutral:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive it to be neutral in cases where the mother was raped or where the fetus threatens her life.
You then argue that abortion cannot be neutral:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
My POINT is someone said that Abortion isn't right or wrong, it is just an action nothing more nothing less, and that i feel is WRONG.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And how so? Can you come up with proof that Abortion is an issue independent of morality? Sorry bro, bad argument 👇EVERY ISSUE is subject to being labelled as right or wrong. Abortion is no exception.
By your own admission, abortion may be independent of morality:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive it to be neutral in cases where the mother was raped or where the fetus threatens her life.
Furthermore, your argument is that there is a relationship between whether or not abortion is a moral dichotomy and whether or not moral dichotomies exist, i.e. if abortion is not right or wrong, then nothing is right or wrong.
That is the equivalent of arguing that if ice cream is not chocolate flavored or strawberry flavored, then no flavors exist.
🙄