Abortion

Originally posted by Robtard
This is what a baby looks like at 20 weeks (see below) where it is still legal to have an abortion. Besides the obvious physical resemblance to a human, the brain is developed and functioning. Just because the child hasn't had a chance to learn anything doesn't make it any less of a person.

Obviously at this time, it is harder to get an abortion. And so what if someone does get an abortion in the 5th month? Researchers have yet to prove whether or not the fetus feels pain at all at this point. Most of their observations suggest that the thalamus does not link to the cerebal cortex until about the 23rd week. If this is true, then they cannot receive the sensation of pain until they're in the 23rd week of development.

Originally posted by Robtard
Here's a 3-d ultra sound (see below) incase a drawing isn't enough. You can clearly make out the face. At this stage the baby has already begun to open and close it eyes, moves all it's limbs and even sucks it's thumb. Odd how such human like behavior form 'something' that looks exactly like a human is not a human??? Someone made the comment, '"it's nothing more than jello, you're protecting jello." Ya ok....

[QUOTE=6661669]Originally posted by Robtard

It basically is nothing more than a lump of flesh. You cannot base blinking eyes and moving limbs as a sign of being human. That would be like saying a rat is a dog because they both can blink their eyes and move their legs to run.

[i]Originally posted by Robtard
So, like I said before, just because it suit's you to say 'a fetus is not a person' and try to pass this off as fact doesn't make it so. Do some more research on how a baby developes and educate yourselves before jumping to such hasty conclusions.

[B]Can you show me proof that this fetus is not a person? As you and especially Alpha Centauri claim, 'there is UNDENIABLE proof that a fetus is not a person.' Lets see it. [/B]

It does suit me to say that a fetus is not a person because it is a point of view. And I agree that saying so doesn't make it a fact. But just like you saying that a fetus is a person is also a point of view, and that to does not make it a fact. Whether the fetus can be proven to be a person or not is totally impossible because it is only an opinion.

In other words, you have not given me a single shred of proof that the fetus is a person/human/individual. Try again, this time, use your fully functional brain.

In most countries an abortion past 12 weeks is illegal, and in countries where it's not illegal, the doctors frown upon it, at that point getting an abortion becomes more harmful to the mother. Your crap about 20 weeks is almost irrelevant.

Originally posted by Robtard
Wow, I see you still think you're really deep and meaningful with your insults... Why don't you take what you said above and apply it to yourself oh wise prophet... What's next..."Right and wrong do not exist..." "Life is just a fantasy...", "The future is only a dream.." Dude, all you are is one big cliche; so full of yourself with your pseudo-intellectual one liners...

I didn't think you'd have anything decent to say in reply. Nice dealing with you.

Moving on.

Originally posted by Robtard
This is what a baby looks like at 20 weeks (see below) where it is still legal to have an abortion. Besides the obvious physical resemblance to a human, the brain is developed and functioning. Just because the child hasn't had a chance to learn anything doesn't make it any less of a person.

No, that's a colourful drawing that doesn't realistically depict anything. They drawn them pleasantly to keep up the facade that child birth is this clean, angelic experience. Not the gory bloodbath it actually is.

Originally posted by Robtard
Here's a 3-d ultra sound (see below) incase a drawing isn't enough. You can clearly make out the face. At this stage the baby has already begun to open and close it eyes, moves all it's limbs and even sucks it's thumb. Odd how such human like behavior form 'something' that looks exactly like a human is not a human??? Someone made the comment, '"it's nothing more than jello, you're protecting jello." Ya ok....

It's a human foetus, it's not a human being, there is a difference and I suggest you learn it. If you are suggesting that the foetus in the picture is equal to a living, grown human, then I fear even more for this thread.

It sucks its thumb, blinks and "moves", so this makes it equal to us? Give me a break. Funny that you have the nerve to tell me I'm talking silly, just read what you type. Such sensationalistic, child worship bs.

The irony is, you fight for the foetuses right to life, yet if it grew up and wanted an abortion to better its life, you'd be against it. Despite previously fighting for its right to "life." Nothing but a bunch of thoughtless hypocrites.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

The irony is, you fight for the foetuses right to life, yet if it grew up and wanted an abortion to better its life, you'd be against it. Despite previously fighting for its right to "life." Nothing but a bunch of thoughtless hypocrites.

-AC

Word, it has a right to live...but to live how they want 🙄

These people think about the future, but they don't actually THINK about the future.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Word, it has a right to live...but to live how they want 🙄

These people think about the future, but they don't actually THINK about the future.

It has a right to live but how 'they' want? Where do you come up with this sh!t? So let me see, I propose that a fetus is a person and therefore has a right to life just like any other person. You choose the right to decide if it will live or die and yet I am the one guilty of taking control of its life? Hypocrisy at it's finest that is.

Originally posted by Robtard
It has a right to live but how 'they' want? Where do you come up with this sh!t? So let me see, I propose that a fetus is a person and therefore has a right to life just like any other person. You choose the right to decide if it will live or die and yet I am the one guilty of taking control of its life? Hypocrisy at it's finest that is.

I'll say it one last time, since you appear to be simple, ok? Read it:

Nobody here is deciding whether it lives or dies, nobody is deciding the life of a foetus, clear? All we are saying is that its mother has the right to decide, just her. We're not deciding, we're just saying the mother has the right to.

What you need to understand is that you are claiming this human foetus (because it's not a person) has a right to a life, but then if it grows up and wants an abortion to the benefit of its life, you would deny it that. So what exactly are you fighting for? The mental image of some cute little baby? Have you seen a newborn? A limp body, covered in blood, screaming, with a tube of skin attached to it. Nothing cute about it.

How can you claim that you are fighting for a foetuses right to life, if you'd deny a living human the right to make a choice in their life?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't think you'd have anything decent to say in reply. Nice dealing with you.

You're the one that repeatedly resorts to petty insults...

No, that's a colourful drawing that doesn't realistically depict anything. They drawn them pleasantly to keep up the facade that child birth is this clean, angelic experience. Not the gory bloodbath it actually is.

Have you ever been present at a birth? There is very little blood and what you consider 'gory' is just the nature of life. It's actual a pretty amazing thing to witness and it certainly isn't anything to be fearful of. It's only natural dude...

It's a human foetus, it's not a human being, there is a difference and I suggest you learn it. If you are suggesting that the foetus in the picture is equal to a living, grown human, then I fear even more for this thread.

It sucks its thumb, blinks and "moves", so this makes it equal to us? Give me a break. Funny that you have the nerve to tell me I'm talking silly, just read what you type. Such sensationalistic, child worship bs.

The irony is, you fight for the foetuses right to life, yet if it grew up and wanted an abortion to better its life, you'd be against it. Despite previously fighting for its right to "life." Nothing but a bunch of thoughtless hypocrites.
-AC

A human is a human, age has nothing to do with it, so yes; a fetus is equal to ‘us’ in my opinion and if you use this poll as an example, society is just about split down the middle on this.. Here's an idea, show some facts to prove me wrong and show me that a fetus isn't a person , I'll be happy to learn. Because, no matter how many times you say 'a fetus isn't a person and there's undeniable proof' doesn't mean a thing unless you can back it up with proof.

You're elitist attitude thinking you're better than someone else because you had the fortune of living longer and experiencing life is what is BS.

Actually, if you reread what I said before I do not have the attitude that all abortions should be illegal; there are chases where an abortion would be the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak. But the way the laws are now, they make abortion as an easy alternative to avoiding responsibility.

Originally posted by Robtard
Have you ever been present at a birth? There is very little blood and what you consider 'gory' is just the nature of life. It's actual a pretty amazing thing to witness and it certainly isn't anything to be fearful of. It's only natural dude...

Yes I have, I guess you were there at a particularly clean birth. Childbirth is not for the faint of heart, natural or not.

Originally posted by Robtard
A human is a human, age has nothing to do with it, so yes; a fetus is equal to ‘us’ in my opinion and if you use this poll as an example, society is just about split down the middle on this.. [B]Here's an idea, show some facts to prove me wrong and show me that a fetus isn't a person , I'll be happy to learn. Because, no matter how many times you say 'a fetus isn't a person and there's undeniable proof' doesn't mean a thing unless you can back it up with proof.[/b]

Well seeing as you've just said a foetus is equal to us living human beings, I'll write off anything else you say. Possibly the most ludicrous idea I've heard.

A foetus isn't a person because...it's a foetus.

per·son
n.
A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.

None of those apply to a foetus. A foetus does not have what a human has, therefore, it's not a human. If left, it will become one, barring a childbirth death or what not. It isn't one when it's a foetus. Two different lifeforms. It's a human foetus, not a human being.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're elitist attitude thinking you're better than someone else because you had the fortune of living longer and experiencing life is what is BS.

Learn the apostrophe rule, first. Second, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said a foetus isn't equal to a human being, because it's not.

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, if you reread what I said before I do not have the attitude that all abortions should be illegal; there are chases where an abortion would be the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak. But the way the laws are now, they make abortion as an easy alternative to avoiding responsibility.

So? There will always be idiots who misuse abortion, but that's a people problem, not an abortion problem.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
A human is a human, age has nothing to do with it, so yes; a fetus is equal to ‘us’ in my opinion and if you use this poll as an example, society is just about split down the middle on this.. [B]Here's an idea, show some facts to prove me wrong and show me that a fetus isn't a person , I'll be happy to learn. Because, no matter how many times you say 'a fetus isn't a person and there's undeniable proof' doesn't mean a thing unless you can back it up with proof.

You're elitist attitude thinking you're better than someone else because you had the fortune of living longer and experiencing life is what is BS.

Actually, if you reread what I said before I do not have the attitude that all abortions should be illegal; there are chases where an abortion would be the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak. But the way the laws are now, they make abortion as an easy alternative to avoiding responsibility. [/B]

Man you are stupid. It's funny how you're the one telling us to back up the argument of a foetuse not being person with proof when you yourself have not even begun to prove to us that a foetuse is a person. Not to mention that you've also contradicted your entire argument by admitting that it is your opinion that it is a person.

You're doing nothing now except spouting absolute nonsense.

Oh and by the way everyone, look at what Robtard said in the Abstinence thread:

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're able to refrain from sex throughout your hormonal years and this is what you really want to do, then do it, it's strictly your choice not to have sex. You're not harming anyone as long as you do not impose this on others, so who cares what other people think.

Personally, for your emotional developement; I'd say educate yourself on sex and safe sexual practices and go for it.

Only to go on to say:

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, if you reread what I said before I do not have the attitude that all abortions should be illegal; there are chases where an abortion would be the 'lesser of two evils' so to speak. But the way the laws are now, they make abortion as an easy alternative to avoiding responsibility.

Let's all point and laugh at the rabid hypocricy.

"Do what you like, who cares what anyone else thinks? Don't impose your beliefs on people. Have sex as long as you educate yourself, but don't have an abortion because that's wrong."

-AC

I love how he says "You're not harming anyone as long as you do not impose this on others, so who cares what other people think. "

While at the exact same moment, he's trying to impose his beliefs on others concerning abortion "No! you can't have an abortion! I don't care if it doesn't effect me in any way, i belive the thing is alive! RAAAGGRRGGRG"

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'll say it one last time, since you appear to be simple, ok? Read it:

[b]Nobody here is deciding whether it lives or dies, nobody is deciding the life of a foetus, clear? All we are saying is that its mother has the right to decide, just her. We're not deciding, we're just saying the mother has the right to.

What you need to understand is that you are claiming this human foetus (because it's not a person) has a right to a life, but then if it grows up and wants an abortion to the benefit of its life, you would deny it that. So what exactly are you fighting for? The mental image of some cute little baby? Have you seen a newborn? A limp body, covered in blood, screaming, with a tube of skin attached to it. Nothing cute about it.
How can you claim that you are fighting for a foetuses right to life, if you'd deny a living human the right to make a choice in their life?

-AC [/B]

Yes I have actually seen birth up close and personal and what does the appearing of a newborn have to do with abortion? The premise that abortions are ok because you personally fear birth is ridiculous. You have some serious issue... Here's another mental image for you, have you ever seen the tiny dead body of a fetus that has been aborted? That's not a pretty picture.

Same way I'd try and deny someone if they chose to end your life. I realize that many women who become pregnant are not mentally or emotionally able to raise a child and I do sympathize with that. But if you willingly made the choice to have sex, take the responsibility for its consequences, there are alternatives to abortion, adoption being one. If you were mature enough to have sex, be mature enough to pay the price of carrying the child and baring the pain of child birth. But like I said in a previous post, it isn’t this cut and dry and there are exceptions.

And, I am not one of those prolife extremist who thing people are going to hell and feel abortion doctors should be killed. I am just adamant that a fetus is a person and people have rights.

Yea, people do have rights, the mother is a person with more rights than the damn fetus. Actually I believe she does have the right to say "**** you leave me alone" and get an abortion anyway.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh and by the way everyone, look at what Robtard said in the Abstinence thread:

Only to go on to say:

Let's all point and laugh at the rabid hypocricy.

"Do what you like, who cares what anyone else thinks? Don't impose your beliefs on people. Have sex as long as you educate yourself, but don't have an abortion because that's wrong."

-AC

Actually I did NOT say what you quoted above, not even close... If you took the time to read what I said would have realized the key point I made was 'educate yourself on sex and safe sexual practices and go for it.' Duh...

Sex is natural and a healthy needed experience. Sex DOESN'T solely equate to reproduction.

So, go back to your drawing board and try again, or better yet, grown up a little and stop with the ad hominum retorts, this is a debate so debate the topic.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes I have actually seen birth up close and personal and what does the appearing of a newborn have to do with abortion? The premise that abortions are ok because you personally fear birth is ridiculous. You have some serious issue... Here's another mental image for you, have you ever seen the tiny dead body of a fetus that has been aborted? That's not a pretty picture.

Why are you assuming I fear childbirth? I'm using the very real image of childbirth to erase all these mental images that it's a cute little baby. Why are you making a logic leap of "He fears child birth and that's why he thinks abortion is ok"? I've never been of that belief, and I never will. That's very desperate of you.

I don't care about what a woman wants to do, it's none of my business, but make sure you get your facts right before you speak about my beliefs.

Originally posted by Robtard
Same way I'd try and deny someone if they chose to end your life. I realize that many women who become pregnant are not mentally or emotionally able to raise a child and I do sympathize with that. But if you willingly made the choice to have sex, take the responsibility for its consequences, there are alternatives to abortion, adoption being one. If you were mature enough to have sex, be mature enough to pay the price of carrying the child and baring the pain of child birth. But like I said in a previous post, it isn’t this cut and dry and there are exceptions.

Take responsibility for the consequences? Wait, let's discuss this.

You don't want them to just take action, you want them to deal with it in a way that pleases you. You want them to not have an abortion because you dislike abortion, that's what it is. By having an abortion they are dealing with the consequences how they want to. That's all that matters.

Adoption is fine, if that's what the woman wants. If the woman wants to keep it, that's fine also, as is abortion. What you have to understand is that it's nothing to do with you. You have no business with it. Do you not get that? You are claiming you fight for the rights of humans, but your view is that they should be punished for having sex.

Of course there are exceptions, there're always exceptions with people like you. As long as it conforms to what you believe, it's ok. Yet you previously said "Don't impose that on others", with regards to abstinance. You're a filthy hypocrite.

Originally posted by Robtard
And, I am not one of those prolife extremist who thing people are going to hell and feel abortion doctors should be killed. I am just adamant that a fetus is a person and people have rights.

Yeah, like the right to choose an abortion.

-AC

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
I love how he says "You're not harming anyone as long as you do not impose this on others, so who cares what other people think. "

While at the exact same moment, he's trying to impose his beliefs on others concerning abortion "No! you can't have an abortion! I don't care if it doesn't effect me in any way, i belive the thing is alive! RAAAGGRRGGRG"

Yes, my point exactly; do what you like if you're not haming anyone. I see a fetus as being a someone and you guessed it, an abortion would be harmful(fatal) to that person. Stop being Alpha's echo, it's bad enough I have to kick his soap box from uder him let alone his puppet.

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually I did [B]NOT say what you quoted above, not even close... If you took the time to read what I said would have realized the key point I made was 'educate yourself on sex and safe sexual practices and go for it.' Duh...

Sex is natural and a healthy needed experience. Sex DOESN'T solely equate to reproduction.

So, go back to your drawing board and try again, or better yet, grown up a little and stop with the ad hominum retorts, this is a debate so debate the topic. [/B]

I'm debating the topic, I'm exposing your hypocricy.

You said this:

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're able to refrain from sex throughout your hormonal years and this is what you really want to do, then do it, it's strictly your choice not to have sex. You're not harming anyone as long as you do not impose this on others, so who cares what other people think.

Personally, for your emotional developement; I'd say educate yourself on sex and safe sexual practices and go for it.

You're not harming anyone by believing abortion is wrong, but don't impose that on anyone else. You're being hypocritical here and I've exposed you for it. I don't need to be ad hominem, your arguments provide me with more than enough ammo.

People educate themselves on sex and still get pregnant, be it by accident or otherwise. You contradict yourself.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, my point exactly; do what you like if you're not haming anyone. I see a fetus as being a someone and you guessed it, an abortion would be harmful(fatal) to that person. Stop being Alpha's echo, it's bad enough I have to kick his soap box from uder him let alone his puppet.

"Stop retorting with childish insults" he says.

You get more hypocritical by the second. The irony is, you're being the echo of many people in this thread, all of you saying as little as the last person.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, my point exactly; do what you like if you're not haming anyone. I see a fetus as being a someone and you guessed it, an abortion would be harmful(fatal) to that person. Stop being Alpha's echo, it's bad enough I have to kick his soap box from uder him let alone his puppet.

An assumption based on a lack of evidence! Awesome! You're good at that aren't you? Although I agree with AC on being pro-choice, I have different reasons. Maybe if you read the thread you'd understand that. Although even if you did read the thread I'm not sure you'd understand anything.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[Why are you assuming I fear childbirth? I'm using the very real image of childbirth to erase all these mental images that it's a cute little baby. Why are you making a logic leap of "He fears child birth and that's why he thinks abortion is ok"? I've never been of that belief, and I never will. That's very desperate of you.

I don't care about what a woman wants to do, it's none of my business, but make sure you get your facts right before you speak about my beliefs.

You tried to use the physical appearance of how a baby looks after birth as an arguing point for pro-abortion. That is not only ridiculous, but tells me that you fear childbirth. Think about, how does physical appearance have any place in an abortion debate…

Take responsibility for the consequences? Wait, let's discuss this.

You don't want them to just take action, you want them to deal with it in a way that pleases you. You want them to not have an abortion because you dislike abortion, that's what it is. By having an abortion they are dealing with the consequences how they want to. That's all that matters.

Adoption is fine, if that's what the woman wants. If the woman wants to keep it, that's fine also, as is abortion. What you have to understand is that it's nothing to do with you. You have no business with it. Do you not get that? You are claiming you fight for the rights of humans, but your view is that they should be punished for having sex.

No, I'm not trying to punish people for having sex; I'm saying people need to take responsibility for their actions. They way the abortion laws are now; it's like reckless gambling without the fear of losing money. But you won’t see that,

Do not worry about educating yourself on safe sexual practices and learning how to minimize the chance of pregnancy to as close to zero as you possible can because if you happen to be unlucky and become pregnant when you're not willing to be an abortion is readily available. That's what is wrong.

Of course there are exceptions, there're always exceptions with people like you. As long as it conforms to what you believe, it's ok. Yet you previously said "Don't impose that on others", with regards to abstinance. You're a filthy hypocrite.

Oh, look who is calling the kettle black... The sole reason you're for abortion is so you can take less responsibility for your actions.

This is pointless to debate further, you were correct in your assumption several pages back. I'll never see your view that a fetus 'is not' a person and you'll never see my view that a fetus 'is' a person.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
An assumption based on a lack of evidence! Awesome! You're good at that aren't you? Although I agree with AC on being pro-choice, I have different reasons. Maybe if you read the thread you'd understand that. Although even if you did read the thread I'm not sure you'd understand anything.

You or anyone else has yet to show evidence that a fetus isn't a person.

And like Alpha Centauri, you resort to ad hominem retorts.