Abortion

"I think it is rather distasteful that some women use abortion as birth control when there are couples out there who can't have children, I do. However, this doesn't mean that a single person's life should be altered so those couple's can benefit. As Arac said, they're not built for those couples."

im not saying that anything that i say should be made into hard copy law, TO ME it is the moral thing to do. i agree with you that helping people all the time will get civilization nowhere. through great hardship comes great strength. you cant build muscle without enduring some sort of pain. but in this circumstance its a little different. a couple who cant have a baby cant do anything about it except adopt. every woman is built naturally to bare children, and it is very sad that the gift is taken away from some women. like i said, woman shouldnt be FORCED to birth the baby and give it away ARACH. i dont believe it would be right to make a law stating that. my 'what ifs' are examples that these 'fetus' grow up to be people like you and me and develope a personality even early in pregnancy and that they depend on the mother.

Originally posted by .😖pace Opera:.
my 'what ifs' are examples that these 'fetus' grow up to be people like you and me and develope a personality even early in pregnancy and that they depend on the mother.

"What if...?" scenarios have no place here though. They are purely sensationalistic guesswork ideas.

-AC

You don't want another child to grow up to be a person like me. A little less inhibition and I'd be Charles Manson on Viagara.

Point is, saying a 'what if' goes both ways, positive and negative. Whether you think it does or not. That's why it's pointless to dream about the future in such a way.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
the rest is in the other thread.

You do not understand, and I don't see why. You argue that it is wrong, and then support that it should be available. Why do you not see that as backwards? You support something that you believe is wrong.

Apparently this seems to be the biggest misunderstanding everyone has with me, so let me clarify once and for all. It is my opinion yes, but I am smart enough to realize that MY opinion is not going to WORK for everyone, nor should be used as a solution for someone else's problems.

It's like if someone like Space Opera thinks being gay is sinful and all that crap....fine let him beleive that, he has the right to THINK what he wants. However, if someone in power with HIS mentality were to make gay sex illegal, how horrible would that be?

I do think Abortion is immoral, but I would never take it away as an option, i think the woman should be exposed to ALL options possible. If I were to take away her right, not only would i be a dictator by doing so, but I may actually make things worse.

I am fully aware of the fact that an abortion usually results in positivity for the woman's future. But that does not make it right. I feel Abortion can be a "necessary evil"?

I mean do you understand what I am trying to say? I keep having to repeat this point, and its getting annoying. 🙄

"It's like if someone like Space Opera thinks being gay is sinful and all that crap....fine let him beleive that, he has the right to THINK what he wants. However, if someone in power with HIS mentality were to make gay sex illegal, how horrible would that be?"

yeah i think being gay is sinful, but if i would never vote to take away their right to have sex, i even think that if they want to get married than they should be able to. its a belief/lifestyle/path they follow just like members of a certain religion belive in what they do. its a FREE country. and i support it. if i were to vote against that than we might as well vote to take away buddhism and hinduism and everything else that isnt christian, but no i wouldnt, because i know and respect other peoples beliefs, and agree that they should practice them freely without prejudice.

the cell will eventually develope into a person, imagine killing the person that means the most to you... do you feel alright about that? if so you have issues.

Originally posted by .😖pace Opera:.
"It's like if someone like Space Opera thinks being gay is sinful and all that crap....fine let him beleive that, he has the right to THINK what he wants. However, if someone in power with HIS mentality were to make gay sex illegal, how horrible would that be?"

yeah i think being gay is sinful, but if i would never vote to take away their right to have sex, i even think that if they want to get married than they should be able to. its a belief/lifestyle/path they follow just like members of a certain religion belive in what they do. its a FREE country. and i support it. if i were to vote against that than we might as well vote to take away buddhism and hinduism and everything else that isnt christian, but no i wouldnt, because i know and respect other peoples beliefs, and agree that they should practice them freely without prejudice.

I realize this. I was only using you as an example of someone who thinks homosexuality is immoral.

You have every right to your opinion, but you have no right to enforce this on another person. I know that you KNOW this, so dont worry.

I was making an analogy. I think Abortion is immoral, but i would never force a woman to not have 1. I don't have to force my opinion to validate it, and that's what people on this thread don't seem to understand. 😉

well c'mon now, there's a BIG difference between forcing your opinion and voicing it.

Originally posted by .😖pace Opera:.
well c'mon now, there's a BIG difference between forcing your opinion and voicing it.

I know. All I did was state that I think Abortion is wrong, but I am still for choice...and then u got peeps like Adam Poe calling me a ton of childish insults over it. 🙄

whos that?

An Angry Liberal lol 😆

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
the cell will eventually develope into a person, imagine killing the person that means the most to you... do you feel alright about that? if so you have issues.

What the crap?

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You don't want another child to grow up to be a person like me. A little less inhibition and I'd be Charles Manson on Viagara.

Nevermind.

last i checked we live in a democracy, where the people make law.
if people support forcing women with unwanted pregnancies to give
birth, then they will likely vote for such a law. thereby they would be forcing said women to give birth, based on their personal morals, and therefore they would be forcing their morals on others.

i cant, for the life of me understand why you people insist on dodging that. its quite cowardly to say its just your belief when IN FACT you would impose it on others through your vote and thus the law.

enough with the cop out

Originally posted by PVS
last i checked we live in a democracy, where the people make law.
if people support forcing women with unwanted pregnancies to give
birth, then they will likely vote for such a law. thereby they would be forcing said women to give birth, based on their personal morals, and therefore they would be forcing their morals on others.

i cant, for the life of me understand why you people insist on dodging that. its quite cowardly to say its just your belief when IN FACT you would impose it on others through your vote and thus the law.

enough with the cop out

How Desperate for you to make a statement like this. 🙄

You are putting words in our mouth, acting as if you know who we are, and therefore know what our actions would be.

I never voted to ban abortion, nor will I ever. The same way I would hope that Space Opera would not vote to ban gay marriage. even though he is personally against it.

PVS...dont stoop to this low. If you can't make a valid argument, then don't make an argument at all.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How Desperate for you to make a statement like this. 🙄

You are putting words in our mouth, acting as if you know who we are, and therefore know what our actions would be.

I never voted to ban abortion, nor will I ever. The same way I would hope that Space Opera would not vote to ban gay marriage. even though he is personally against it.

PVS...dont stoop to this low. If you can't make a valid argument, then don't make an argument at all.

again, you avoid the point. so YOU wouldnt vote for banning abortion.
thats great, here's your ****ing cookie. maybe i shouldnt have said that pro lifers would definately vote to ban abortion, but rather that they likely would....oh wait, thats exactly what i said.
being the exception does not prove me wrong.

i cant believe that you would actually defy reality and pretend that the majority of the people who are against abortion wont vote on it. no, the laws just magically make themselves. what a sad way to win the thread.

pro-lifer- "its just my belief, so it should be your belief too. i wont force you to abide, but i'll vote to have you forced to abide.

lord urizen: "...except for me, so the previous statement does not exist"

just to clear things up when it comes to me, a citizen of this democracy, i am not about to go march onto the steps of washington and strike for prolife, for that would lead nowhere. my goals lay on a personal level, where showing people a perspective maybe they have never seen before would lead them to a better understanding of why i believe what i do, in hopes of perhaps changing their mind on the subject. not through force though.

if i told a person who was thinking about having an abortion my views on the subject in aspiration to help motivate them into a different solution to their ordeal, then they ultimately decide to go the opposite route and have the abortion, i would feel sad for them and the unborn child, but i would NOT alienate them in any way and not judge them for thinking different.

Abortion.

It is not murder (generally). Not in the US anyways. What does this mean for us? As long as the abortion is carried out legally, it is not murder. Unless you're a Christian. Then, I'm pretty much universally sure, it is against God's law. Meaning it's unlawful. Meaning it's murder.

From a religious point of view, pretty much any religion, it is wrong. A fundamental part of every religion I've ever seen is the spreading of it. One sure way to spread a religion is for its members to procreate. Since abortion prevents procreation, I'm pretty much sure any religion will be against it.

From an atheistic point of view, what difference does it make? Our whole existence is meaningless, so who cares if a fetus is murdered? (that should raise a few brows)

From a moral point of view, it all depends on the situation. If abortion is being used as a form of birth control, then most would be morally opposed to it. This is where most the debating usually happens. Is it moral? Is it moral to take a life so that mine is more convenient? No. Is it taking a life? Well, now, that's a pickle of a question, isn't it? Until there is consensus on this point, the moral question really can't be addressed appropriately. Life either begins before conception, at conception, between conception and birth, at birth, or after birth. We can pretty much all agree that neither before conception nor after birth are worth consideration. Most will agree that "at birth" would also not be valid, since you can cut the mother open before birth, remove the baby, and it will still survive on it's own. Most would also concede that at conception is too soon - otherwise most of the women on birth control pills are having abortions every month. So that leaves us with between conception and birth. That's a big gray area, and I don't really have a strong opinion on where in that range I would say that life begins. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose - a month ago I would have said that it is when the baby can be removed from the mother and survive. But after spending about an hour yesterday watching my sister's daughter on the ultrasound machine, I think now I'd have to say I'm not smart enough to make that decision. So why don't we just leave it at uterine attachment.

Practically, abortion makes sense. It makes sense if the mother's life is in danger, because her life is more important for the good of the species. She is of child bearing age (obviously). If she is sacraficed to save the baby, the baby won't be able to contribute to population growth until it reaches child bearing age, while the mother could do so relatively immediately.

Originally posted by .😖pace Opera:.
just to clear things up when it comes to me, a citizen of this democracy, i am not about to go march onto the steps of washington and strike for prolife, for that would lead nowhere. my goals lay on a personal level, where showing people a perspective maybe they have never seen before would lead them to a better understanding of why i believe what i do, in hopes of perhaps changing their mind on the subject. not through force though.

if i told a person who was thinking about having an abortion my views on the subject in aspiration to help motivate them into a different solution to their ordeal, then they ultimately decide to go the opposite route and have the abortion, i would feel sad for them and the unborn child, but i would NOT alienate them in any way and not judge them for thinking different.

Well there's their choice, have an abortion, or listen to your kind words and go through morning sickness and try to push a basketball sized baby out of their vagina for 20 hours.

Hmm, 9 months of weightgain, morning vomiting, cramps, and then 20 hours of labor just to give the baby away, or spare myself the ordeal for a baby I would never see anyway. I know what I would choose. Well, if I were female.

Since everyone likes dealing in 'what if's'...

Assume that abortion was outlawed, and it was ruled as murder. Any doctors performing abortions would go to jail, and presumably so would the mothers. Women who were forced by circumstance to do coat hanger abortions not only would have to deal with the physical and emotional pain, but also serve a prison sentence (all assuming the death penalty was not an option; outlawing abortion but not the death penalty is illogical). Even if there were legitimate reasons for the abortion (accidental pregnancy, extreme poverty, relationship troubles, etc.), every woman would be forced to have their child. It furthermore seems unlikely that adoption would be a simple task, as the number of children would seemingly skyrocket. Thus, in order to avoid incredibly difficult, and possibly life-threatening situations, sex would have to regulated, or more likely, abstinence would be forced.

If abstinence was forced, what next? No drinking? No gambling? No television watching? No fast food? All these things are POTENTIALLY lethal, but as of right now it is our CHOICE to do them. Take away one choice, and more may follow....

Originally posted by Cataclysm
This is an issue that I am torn on. I don't think that women should use abortions as a form of birth control. Being raped, child being deformed and the like, and a high risk fetal/mother/both death I would see as valid reasons for getting an abortion. But I also don't see how the government can come in and put a gun to the woman's head and say that she has to have this baby.
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Which is why you have to accept that you cannot pick and choose what reasons women use abortion for. It's better to be fully for it being legal (without necessarily agreeing with it as a whole) than for it being illegal.

Originally posted by Cataclysm
Abortion.

It is not murder (generally). Not in the US anyways. What does this mean for us? As long as the abortion is carried out legally, it is not murder. Unless you're a Christian. Then, I'm pretty much universally sure, it is against God's law. Meaning it's unlawful. Meaning it's murder.

False, religion has no bearing on existent laws, it's never murder. It's not murder just because you morally or religiously believe so. It never is.

-AC