Originally posted by Lord Urizen
REALLY?Then how come when a woman throws her unborn child into the garbage, she gets arrested?
How come if a woman miscarries, shits her baby into a tiolet, flushes it, and then gets caught....shes gets in massive legal trouble???
I think you're getting a little too literal. I don't think people have tried to have an abortion by punching themselves in the stomach or throwing themselves down the stairs since the fifties.
I don't think anyone miscarries and has gotten in trouble for it. Misacarriages happen all the time. And you can't toss an unborn baby into the garbage. By definition of the act, the baby would have to have been born. So, that's murder.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I think you're getting a little too literal. I don't think people have tried to have an abortion by punching themselves in the stomach or throwing themselves down the stairs since the fifties.I don't think anyone miscarries and has gotten in trouble for it. Misacarriages happen all the time. And you can't toss an unborn baby into the garbage. By definition of the act, the baby would have to have been born. So, that's murder.
Women have gotten in trouble for AFTER having a miscarriage, dumping thier child into a toilet, flushing it OR throwing it in the garbage. They are by Law, supposed to report the miscarriage, and bring the unborn child to either a Hospital or some sort of Institution that can handle the situation.
Originally posted by crazylozer
Your logic is inherently flawed through your incapability of taking one stance. If you truly believed that abortion was wrong, you shouldn't be supporting it. According to your logic, it's okay for people to think that murder is wrong, but people have the right to choose to kill people. That makes no sense. If you think that something is seriously immoral, why would you possibly think that it should be lawful?
Black and White stance? Sorry, i dont have one.
I am Pro-Choice....for this reason:
1)....... Although I feel Abortion is wrong, if the woman decides to have the child, she is the one who has to suffer the child birth and damage done to her body.
So I should ban abortion, and force her to give birth, just because I disagree with her choice? YOUR LOGIC seems more flawed here.
2)Murder- true murder, by its "legal" is different from Abortion. Even if in my opinion, Abortion is only slightly less immoral than murder, the opposite to Abortion is actual child birth.
Child Birth takes its toll on the woman, physically, emotionally, mentally, etc. The mother has to SUFFER for the baby to be born.
The opposite of actual Murder is no murder. To commit no murder results in no actual pain, while to go through with Child Birth results in actual pain and self mutilation, while Abortion doesn't always result in that.
Also Murder is more immoral, BECAUSE it is the killing of a live human being who can feel the pain of thier death, and who is either aware of thier deaths, OR unaware having thier right to live further, competely violated.
Murder is more selfish, and bears NO positive results.
Abortion does often bear positive results for the mother....she will be able to take more care of herself, and focus on her own life.
Abortion and Murder are not the exact same thing. Do not critisize me for going against Murder 100%, and only going against Abortion 50%.
Originally posted by crazylozer
Why are people pro-choice? The majority of them believe that a foetus is not a child and aborting it does not constitute killing a human being. Personally, I believe that a potential human being should not be thrown away on a whim, but all options should be considered, same as you. [B]But I do not believe that abortion is morally wrong.[/B]
I beleive Abortion is morally wrong, but that's just my opinion. I am not forcing it down anyone's throats, as Omega insists that I am. My opinion jsut hasn't changed, and that pisses people off. Too bad.
Originally posted by crazylozer
I don't really want to touch the whole quality of life thing, but it should be addressed (I'll use simple sentences so everyone can understand me). Children are dying. There are many of them. They do not receive proper treatment. Many of them are unwanted. Some are wanted, but no external support is given. Thus, they suffer. Is it fair to force more children into the world? We as a society are not helping those who already exist. What gives people the right to force women to bring children into the world when they don't care about what happens to them once they are here?
IS it fair to force a child into this world? Is is fair to force a child into death or non existance? FORCE is never fair, so neither is fair. 😉
Originally posted by crazylozer
Again, if you believe that something is wrong, why do you support it? Weigh the bad against the good and decide for yourself whether you support it or not, and don't spend your time telling yourself that it's wrong but you support it; there's no point in that.
Yes there is DEFINATELY a point in that.
It's like if a Heterosexist beleives being Gay is a sin, therefore they beleive its wrong.
Let them beleive its WRONG all the want, does that mean they HAVE TO VOTE TO BAN GAY MARRIAGE ?
A lot of Christians beleive being gay is a sin, but not all of those Christians would FORCEFULLY ban Gay Marriage, and limit the freedom of Gays.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Women have gotten in trouble for AFTER having a miscarriage, dumping thier child into a toilet, flushing it OR throwing it in the garbage. They are by Law, supposed to report the miscarriage, and bring the unborn child to either a Hospital or some sort of Institution that can handle the situation.
Women have been in trouble with the law for abandoning newborns, but no woman has been in trouble with the law for not reporting a miscarriage.
Originally posted by Gay Guy
What do you think a sick week old fetus is...and what do they do with it's remains after an abortion? 😆
Originally posted by Darth Callous
They trash it.
The remains are sold to private companies for scientific medical research.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You were hoping my opinion would become more compatible with your own?😬
Nope, I was hoping you’d loose the anti-abortion rhetoric and take a STAND for yourself. You keep shifting.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Since when have I made a black or white argument? You are the one mad at me for not being pro-abortion. MY stance is grey, and pro choice all the way buddy 😉
Sorry, Urizen, you can’t make me mad, you’re just a KMC-poster with a not always completely clear opinion on the subject. I hope I don’t disappoint you.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Not all of them are.2) Yes, an abortion is the killing of your own child. It's not someone else's child. Just your own. Your unborn child 😉
1) Where is your proof?
2) No, abortion is the removal of a foetus. A foetus is not a child yet. Therefore abortion is not killing a child.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1)Speak on hehalf of other people? Illogical? HA ! I was merely informing you on the massive interviews I have heard from other woman after having had an abortion.2) I am not religious, so don't go pulling that "religious propaganda" card. I am infact very Liberal 😛
3) First of all, I would never put down a woman for her choice. I am only saying WHY I think Abortion is immoral, I am not for banning it or for judging the woman. When will you understand that?
And yes, they did kill thier sons or daughters.....You play it as if the unborn child is nothing until it comes out of the Vagina. What WORLD do you live in?
Massive interviews you have heard??? Ah, yes… And I tell you hormonal turmoil causes post-abortion depressions. And of course – with people like you around to tell an already hormonally depressed girl/woman that she is a KILLER… oh, the good you do. Do you feel good about yourself?
Did you notices the “sounds like”?? I did not SAY you were religious… I say you’re beginning to sound like…
“I would never put a woman down…” “not ban… not judge” “Abortion is immoral.”… This is hypocritical, Urizen. Make up your mind.
And no, they don’t kill their sons and daughters… A foetus is a cluster of cells, Urizen. Are you saying a woman who kills her 3 year old daughter is to be compared to a woman who has an abortion??
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Silly Propaganda? Again nice try.....the woman IS the mother, genuis. No matter how you wanna see it, [b]the foetus IS the child, the offspring, of its mother. How the hell can you validly argue that it's not ?🤨2) You are not speaking of children? You are speaking of the foetus...so the foetus is not her child?
If a mother is 64 and her son is 25, is he no longer her child?
If a mother's 40 yr old son dies of cancer, he is no longer her child?
Your definition is a child is flawed Omega. One's child is thier offspring, no matter what form they exist....feotus, toddler, adult, or courpse. [/B]
Sorry, but I do not view a woman as a mother when she’s in the 4th week. I view a woman with a child in her arms as the mother of the child.
The foetus will eventually mature into a child.
And what is that with the BORN sons and mothers dying of cancer??? I have no clue what you mean?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Like I said a foetus is the mother's child still. It is her offpsring, it is her seed, whatever you wanna call it. It is her child.What about an unborn child? Is it less of a child? Is that term "unborn child" incorrect then?
I do not consider a foetus a child yet, Urizen.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) As for the gigazillionth timeI am not calling the mother a breeding machine for other couples, stop putting words into my mouth.2)I never commented on what the woman [b]should
do. I am merely stating why and when I think Abortion is immoral. The woman should do whatever the hell she wants. You have failed to counter that point so far. [/B]
You may not accept that that is what you want unfortunate pregnant women to BE, Urizen, but if you tell them to give birth and give the child up for adoption, that is essentially what you’re making them.
What argument? That the women should do whatever the hell she wants??? That is not an argument.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Keyword.....you would rather...how is your desire any more valid or correct than my own? Oh wait...I don't have an actual desire here....just an opinion. So what is your point?2) You keep using the word "should". Again YOU are the one dictating choices, you are the one stating what the woman or couple should or shouldn't do, not me. I am only saying why I think Abortion is immoral, NOT that the woman should always make the "moral" choice.
You may think what you want, Urizen. I am merely telling you’re my position and giving you arguments to show you were I stand. When did I say my standpoint was more valid or correct than yours??
How can I dictate anyone’s choice by saying what I would rather want??? I’m not world dictator, Urizen. You’re dodging my points but saying I somehow want to dictate anything: I would first of all rather that children were BORN to parents who want them and look forward to having them. That the parents are ready and willing for the responsibility. If the time is not right, then “no”, then I think the couple/woman should wait until their/her life are better. The lives of living people, who are someones lover/spouse/brother/sister/etc. should always come before a bunch of cells that will have such a large impact on their lives.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) WRONG👇Quantity matters not to me. Whatever a pregnant mother does is her choice, not my own. I could care less what a woman who I don't know, does with her life or foetus.
Again you say Quality. How the hell do you know for sure that a child who is born from parents who want him will automatically have a better life than a child who is born from parents who did not initially want him ?
Parents who WANT thier children are immune to abusing them? Parents who WANT thier children are immune to being bad parents?
Parents who did not want thier children are immune to falling in love with thier children once they are born?
You're trying to make an Absolute Speculation....whose arguing in terms of black and white now? 🙄
You view abortion as immoral. That – by definition – means you’d rather ALL pregnancies resulted in birth. That is definitely about the QUANTITY and NOT the QUALITY of life.
Where do I say that a child born to parents who want it is ensured happiness and quality?? Please, show me that. I would like to ensure the chances are better. And that those wanting to adopt kids first look in countries where there is starvation, poverty and war.
So by suddenly making ALL kinds of peculiar assumptions as to WHAT I mean (instead of asking me if in doubt) you remain in your world of absolutes. I do not.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
2)[b]Make up my mind? 😆 You are so funny ! And you accuse me of arguing in terms of black and white? What a hypocrit ! WOW !I already had made up my mind. Here's my stance ONCE AGAIN for thou who has forgotten:
a) I think Abortion is immoral in most cases, unless the woman was raped, or unless the foetus threatens her life.
b)I am pro choice. Ultamately the woman has the right to make her choice, REGARDLESS of whether or not I think it is moral or immoral. I feel every human being has the right to make thier choice, whether it be the "wrong" or "right" one.
Any further objections? [/B]
How can you THINK abortion is immoral (as ALL actions are maybe either MORAL or IMMORAL??) and then be pro-choice? I think AC already adequately described what that makes you. I’ll merely second his post.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1)[b]Could NOT Should AGAIN when will you get this? Or are you purposely ignoring this, in an attempt to put words in my mouth and label me a hypocrit? 🙄2) Could choose to leave the child for Adoption...yes it is an option, and ALL OPTIONS should be considered. Even Abortion.
[QUOTE=6779420]Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can someone say "Black and White" here? I am refusing to make a stand? Nope....I am Pro-Choice. NOT PRO ABORTION !What part doesn't make sense to you?
I already answered this – see above.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Black and White stance? Sorry, i dont have one.I am [b]Pro-Choice
....for this reason:1)....... Although I feel Abortion is wrong, if the woman decides to have the child, she is the one who has to suffer the child birth and damage done to her body.
So I should ban abortion, and force her to give birth, just because I disagree with her choice? YOUR LOGIC seems more flawed here.
2)Murder- true murder, by its "legal" is different from Abortion. Even if in my opinion, Abortion is only slightly less immoral than murder, the opposite to Abortion is actual child birth.
Child Birth takes its toll on the woman, physically, emotionally, mentally, etc. The mother has to SUFFER for the baby to be born.
The opposite of actual Murder is no murder. To commit no murder results in no actual pain, while to go through with Child Birth results in actual pain and self mutilation, while Abortion doesn't always result in that.
Also Murder is more immoral, BECAUSE it is the killing of a live human being who can feel the pain of thier death, and who is either aware of thier deaths, OR unaware having thier right to live further, competely violated.
Murder is more selfish, and bears NO positive results.
Abortion does often bear positive results for the mother....she will be able to take more care of herself, and focus on her own life.
Abortion and Murder are not the exact same thing. Do not critisize me for going against Murder 100%, and only going against Abortion 50%.
I beleive Abortion is morally wrong, but that's just my opinion. I am not forcing it down anyone's throats, as Omega insists that I am. My opinion jsut hasn't changed, and that pisses people off. Too bad.
IS it fair to force a child into this world? Is is fair to force a child into death or non existance? FORCE is never fair, so neither is fair. 😉
Yes there is DEFINATELY a point in that.
It's like if a Heterosexist beleives being Gay is a sin, therefore they beleive its wrong.
Let them beleive its WRONG all the want, does that mean they HAVE TO VOTE TO BAN GAY MARRIAGE ?
A lot of Christians beleive being gay is a sin, but not all of those Christians would FORCEFULLY ban Gay Marriage, and limit the freedom of Gays. [/B]
Clarify for me, because this is a yes/no question: do you believe that aborting a fetus is the equivalent of killing a human being? That is the pivotal point here. If you don't, then why do you believe it is so wrong? If you do, then yes, abortion must equal to you somewhere in the grey zone hovering near murder in terms of immorality. Following that, if you believe it is still a woman's choice even if it is so wrong, then you clearly have no problem with mass murderers, rapists, thieves and other criminals.
And yeah, remember that "Is Killing ever moral?" thread (which I believe you made)? I believe there are some examples of when killing can be good.
Finally, you missed the point of the whole fair/unfairness bit on forcing childbirth. Forcing them into the world may not good; not letting them in may not be good. The pivotal point is where there is a benefit i.e. the mother can live a better life, and she retains her right to choose what kind of life she wants to live.
Well, I don't know about you guys... but this video basically summarizes what I think about abortion....
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I think you're getting a little too literal. I don't think people have tried to have an abortion by punching themselves in the stomach or throwing themselves down the stairs since the fifties.
It all depends, though. Some women may not be able to afford an abortion, and would be so desperate they would risk their own lives to rid themselves of their unborn baby.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I don't think anyone miscarries and has gotten in trouble for it. Misacarriages happen all the time.
Also, miscarriages are not a crime.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And you can't toss an unborn baby into the garbage. By definition of the act, the baby would have to have been born. So, that's murder.
The law will see a born child as a human being if that child takes a breath. A woman could toss her stillborn child into the trash and not be charged with murder. She would be charged with failing to report a death, or something similar.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then how come when a woman throws her unborn child into the garbage, she gets arrested?
She failed to report that he child had died.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How come if a woman miscarries, shits her baby into a tiolet, flushes it, and then gets caught....shes gets in massive legal trouble???
It depends when she miscarried. Before 5 months, a miscarriage is just that-miscarriage. After 5 months, it is a stillbirth. Women are not requiredby law to report a miscarriage, but they should always go to a hospital, to ensue the fetus has been entirley expelled from the womb. If she gave birth after the 20 week period, this is a stillbirth, and she is legally required to report it.