Originally posted by crazylozer
Clarify for me, because this is a yes/no question: do you believe that aborting a fetus is the equivalent of killing a human being? That is the pivotal point here. If you don't, then why do you believe it is so wrong? If you do, then yes, abortion [B]must equal to you somewhere in the grey zone hovering near murder in terms of immorality. Following that, if you believe it is still a woman's choice even if it is so wrong, then you clearly have no problem with mass murderers, rapists, thieves and other criminals.[/B]
1) I do not beleive that Abortion of a fetus (A.K.A. killing an unborn child) is equal to killing a grown human being. A feotus is not aware of its death, while most of the time a grown human being is. Also Abortion is more justifiable, in the sense that a woman needs to suffer to give birth....murder is always selfish and usually unnecessary. Abortion is not always seflish and sometimes necessary.
2) I beleive it is wrong, because no matter what you are killing a life. That's the basis of it...killing a life for reasons other than survival or self defense. Killing for Convienence, as Omega gets annoyed when I say lol.
3) I do beleive it is the woman's choice for the reasons I stated in answer 1, and all over this damn thread. No, i do not think of Abortion as equal to illegal murder, rape, thievery, etc. Must I explain why????
Fine, incase you want me 2:
Murder- the killing of a self aware human being. Worse than killing a feotus, because the foetus is not self aware.
Rape- the violation of a woman or man by taking away thier sexual choice, and enforcing sexual activity upon them. This is worse.
Thievery- depends WHAT you steal exactly...but is not as big a deal to me as Abortion is, when the thievery is minute.
Originally posted by crazylozer
And yeah, remember that "Is Killing ever moral?" thread (which I believe you made)? I believe there are some examples of when killing can be good.
Yes, I agree. I stated several reasons myself:
1) Survival
2) Self Defense
3) Food
Bad reasons:
1) Pleasure...as in hunting, serial killing, etc.
2) Convienence...as in for me, Abortion is most cases
Originally posted by crazylozer
Finally, you missed the point of the whole fair/unfairness bit on forcing childbirth. Forcing them into the world may not good; not letting them in may not be good. The pivotal point is where there is a benefit i.e. the mother can live a better life, and she retains her right to choose what kind of life she wants to live.
When did I ever say i would force a childbirth though? I agree with you 100% that a woman should never be FORCED to give birth. What part don't you understand?
I think Abortion is immoral. That's just my opinion. That doesn't mean I would force a woman to give birth, or make her feel bad for having an abortion. IF I WERE A WOMAN, i wouldn't do it....it's really that simple.
Don't listen to Omega's accusations that I would force a woman to give childbirth, or that I'd judge a woman for having an abortion. She is simply trying to label me things which I am not, to try and strengthen the validity of her argument...and its pathetic to do so.
F.Y.I. I go against my own morals almost ALL THE TIME.....i do things that i thnk are immoral if it serves me better very often. Does that mean I'd judge myself for it? That i should punish myself or make myself feel inferior for not following my own morals? HELL NO.....
Same way I would think in regards to a pregnant woman who had an abortion. I would think her decision was immoral by MY standards, but why say anything to HER. It's none of my business.
BTW Omega, i promise to answer your posts in due time. I'm exhausted right now, so i will respond to your argument tomorrow for sure. 😉
Just one more thing....You say that I'm being judgemental towards women who have abortions, simply because my opinion is that Abortion is immoral in most cases.
Answer me one thing: You told me that you had an Abortion once. DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING JUDGEMENTAL TO YOU ABOUT YOURABORTION?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I agree. I stated several reasons myself:1) Survival
2) Self Defense
3) Food
Bad reasons:
1) Pleasure...as in hunting, serial killing, etc.
2) Convienence...as in for me, Abortion is most cases
i agree with urizen,
its not a matter of judgement, or murder.
when i hear that a woman got pregnant and had an abortion, i say to myself: "damn, thats to bad." trying to empathy for the woman AND the feotus.
when i hear that a woman got pregnant and decided to have the baby and give it up for adoption, then i would probly say to myself: "WOW, that girl is brave and is such a hero for sacrificing her needs to give that baby a future."
now not to impune on the mother who had the abortion, but recognizing that the woman who went through with the pregnancy did an amazing thing
I have a question for all of you: What do you think about women who brag about having had an abortion?
The reason I ask is because my mother once worked with a young woman who was only 20 years old. This woman constantly bragged to her work mates that she had had three abortions already, and never used protection. When she became pregnant again, she openly bragged, saying she was 'Going to Melbourne to get rid of it'. When she was asked if she ever used protection, she shook her head and said 'Why should I?'
I couldn't believe it when my mother and a good friend of hers came home with this story. On the date this woman was to have her abortion, I barely said anything all day. All I could think about was how selfish some women can be. I felt for her baby-she obviously didn't care enough to prevent a pregnancy, and used abortion as a form of birth control.
I would like to know what you think of women like this? It doesn't matter what your stance on abortion is, and of course it was her choice to have an abortion, but should we start looking at perhaps restricting abortion, if women are taking advantage of it? Perhaps get them to pay an ammount toward the abortion cost? 😕
Originally posted by autumn dreams
I have a question for all of you: What do you think about women who brag about having had an abortion?The reason I ask is because my mother once worked with a young woman who was only 20 years old. This woman constantly bragged to her work mates that she had had three abortions already, and never used protection. When she became pregnant again, she openly bragged, saying she was 'Going to Melbourne to get rid of it'. When she was asked if she ever used protection, she shook her head and said 'Why should I?'
I couldn't believe it when my mother and a good friend of hers came home with this story. On the date this woman was to have her abortion, I barely said anything all day. All I could think about was how selfish some women can be. I felt for her baby-she obviously didn't care enough to prevent a pregnancy, and used abortion as a form of birth control.
I would like to know what you think of women like this? It doesn't matter what your stance on abortion is, and of course it was her choice to have an abortion, but should we start looking at perhaps restricting abortion, if women are taking advantage of it? Perhaps get them to pay an ammount toward the abortion cost? 😕
Give them a punch card.
Originally posted by autumn dreams
I would like to know what you think of women like this? [/COLOR]
Idiots, plain and simple.
A girl I work with was pregnant and was looking forward to having a baby, then had a miscarriage. Obviously an upsetting thing to have happen, but how can some people go off and have 3 or 4 abortions as if it doesnt matter, when other people who want and deserve it more get the shit end of the stick....
If she was only getting pregnant in the first place purely out of sexual pleasure and not wanting to have a baby, then she needs a slap to the face and a condom.
/Mist
Originally posted by Imaginary
Idiots, plain and simple.A girl I work with was pregnant and was looking forward to having a baby, then had a miscarriage. Obviously an upsetting thing to have happen, but how can some people go off and have 3 or 4 abortions as if it doesnt matter, when other people who want and deserve it more get the shit end of the stick....
If she was only getting pregnant in the first place purely out of sexual pleasure and not wanting to have a baby, then she needs a slap to the face and a condom.
/Mist
Obviously. It appears to me that she has no idea what birth control and/or a condom is. But, it still is her choice.
Originally posted by Imaginary
Idiots, plain and simple.A girl I work with was pregnant and was looking forward to having a baby, then had a miscarriage. Obviously an upsetting thing to have happen, but how can some people go off and have 3 or 4 abortions as if it doesnt matter, when other people who want and deserve it more get the shit end of the stick....
If she was only getting pregnant in the first place purely out of sexual pleasure and not wanting to have a baby, then she needs a slap to the face and a condom.
/Mist
Originally posted by Eis
Are you saying that because your friend deserved a baby and had a miscarriage it's ungrateful for other women to have abortions?
Was this abortion paid for out of her own pocket, or by welfare, or by the baby's daddy, or by some kind of abortion loan? It would be a critical point if one were discussing the selfishness issues of this.
I'm really asking whoever said this story, for you really wouldn't know, but I wanted your quote attached.
Originally posted by Eis
Are you saying that because your friend deserved a baby and had a miscarriage it's ungrateful for other women to have abortions?
Nooo.....I dont have a Yes/No answer on abortions, it would depend on the circumstances involved at the time etc....but that particular person was bragging about having abortions and refused to use protection, using abortion as the answer. Sounds like the type of person who doesnt give a **** as long as they get what they want in the end. My post is mainly, people like that should see how misfortunate others are before bragging and doing it all the time instead of just using protection from the start.
the problem is that people use such anecdotal evidence for the win.
you know, the good, god fearing girl who has the baby, and the evil
selfish whore who dines on fetuses because its the thing to do. sweeping
generalisations have been the keystone on the prolife debate here, unfortunately.
so regardless of your good intention, its still irrelevant.
Originally posted by yerssot
PRO-LIFE!!!!!!
so for those dummies here this means: AGAINST ABORTION
I think you can be both pro-life and pro-abortion. For some people-to-be-born, the world they would have entered offers no real life at all, except for poverty and inhumanity. Schopenhauer said it would've been better if we were never born. I'm no pessimist, however, I do think there are parts in the world where I would not wish my enemy to be born in.
Originally posted by PVS
the problem is that people use such anecdotal evidence for the win.
you know, the good, god fearing girl who has the baby, and the evil
selfish whore who dines on fetuses because its the thing to do. sweeping
generalisations have been the keystone on the prolife debate here, unfortunately.
so regardless of your good intention, its still irrelevant.
Exactly.
It reminds me of the Bill Hicks skit where he's talking about how republicans convinced people to vote for Bush Sr. "Do you think George Bush, a good christian white man, is doing nothing to stem the islamic tide from coming over here and f*cking your daughter?"
It's the same thing. "Who's worse? The selfish mother, whore, who got pregnant, or the poor, defenseless christian girl that chose the way her religion dictates?"
-AC