Re: An interesting quiz...
Originally posted by sithsaber408
How would you respond in these situations?1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she's pregnant with the 15th. They're living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?
2. The father is sick with the sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she's pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?
3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and now she's pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?
4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She's not married. Her fiance is not the father of the baby, and her fiance is upset. Would you recommend abortion?
In the first case you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century.
In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.
In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.
In the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ.
I find the pro-choice argument: "You can't use potentiality as a reason to ban abortions, since they could be good or bad, and aren't even people yet." to be quite a joke.
I was going to be aborted, if my father would have had his way. It was the choice of my mother to have me, whether she lost her marriage or not. She had me, and in fact lost the marriage.
But you know what, had she had the abortion, it's ME who wouldn't be here. Me, a human being with thoughts, dreams, fears, hopes, a job, a wife, and a life.
Not a "fetus",... an "it"...or a "choice".
A person.
Every abortion, whether you define it as murder, killing, or the prevention of life, takes away a human being who would have lived among us, just as surely as if I took handgun and shot you in the head.
Think about that the next time you think about the "right to choose."
So what about an ordinary baby ? What if a feotus gets aborted who would have just become a bum...is that ANY LESS TRAGIC ?
No..no...let's keep the baby....it may grow up to be IMPORTANT 🙄
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An interesting quiz...
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So I take it you're saying the Ends always justify the means ?Scenario 1: A murderer is sentenced to death by lethal injection.
Scenario 2: A murderer is given life in prison
End Result: The murderer will no longer kill innocent civilians
No. I am saying that preventing a life one second before fertilization is no better than terminating a life one second after fertilization.
To people who argue that abortion is bad because it erases people from society:
[list=1]
[*]Would you deny that contraception doesn't do the same thing?
[*]Would you deny that people are great, not only by genetics, but they also must learn and be in a good environment? And for that they need money.
[*]Would you deny that the chance of erasing a great man is about as equal as erasing a nobody, or a nazi?
[*]Would you deny that people are very similar, especially people like brothers and sisters, and if the parents try again in the future it make a similar result?
[/list]
For people who argue that killing is immoral and so should abortion:
[list=1]
[*]How can you be sure killing is wrong? Most people believe of life after death so you could be giving someone a better life.
[*]What makes you think killing is wrong? What is so bad about killing that don't fall into the above category.
[*]Is killing someone before birth any more sad than someone dying after 3 years of life from a disease (that can't be cured due to bad wealth of the family) where the parents are attached to the child?
[*]Is aborting a zygote even killing someone in the first place?
[/list]
For people who argue that abortion will cause money problems:
Is it any more money wasting than another person in society, causing global warning, sucking the money out of the family and etc.
Originally posted by lord xyz
To people who argue that abortion is bad because it erases people from society:
[list=1]
[*]Would you deny that contraception doesn't do the same thing?
[*]Would you deny that people are great, not only by genetics, but they also must learn and be in a good environment? And for that they need money.
[*]Would you deny that the chance of erasing a great man is about as equal as erasing a nobody, or a nazi?
[*]Would you deny that people are very similar, especially people like brothers and sisters, and if the parents try again in the future it make a similar result?
[/list]
For people who argue that killing is immoral and so should abortion:
[list=1]
[*]How can you be sure killing is wrong? Most people believe of life after death so you could be giving someone a better life.
[*]What makes you think killing is wrong? What is so bad about killing that don't fall into the above category.
[*]Is killing someone before birth any more sad than someone dying after 3 years of life from a disease (that can't be cured due to bad wealth of the family) where the parents are attached to the child?
[*]Is aborting a zygote even killing someone in the first place?
[/list]
For people who argue that abortion will cause money problems:Is it any more money wasting than another person in society, causing global warning, sucking the money out of the family and etc.
1. Yep. A person hasn't been made yet, so they aren't killed. (wasting a few boards isn't the same as burning down a house.)
2. Nope. You're right, people are made great by their environments and upbringing. A perfect reason as to why you can't argue that aborted fetuses will become Hitlers, since the babies will be born with a clean slate, and only the parents or environment would make them evil.
(though you don't need money, my grandfather never completed college, nor was he rich, but started at IBM at 18, and over 30 years worked his way up to being the Head of H/R (hiring manager) and is the highest paid executive with no college degree in the San Jose branch.)
3. Yep. How many people will really become an evil dictator Nazi type? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Erasing all the others in prevention is ludicrous, and nobody has an abortion because they "think" their kid might be the next Charles Manson.
Also, the "nobody's" are humans too, just as worth saving as a "great man". The point of the famous people in the original post was to give you an illustration of all the people who are killed by abortions, by giving some examples of well-know people whose circumstances showed that they "should" have been aborted, yet were not and made great contributions to society.
4. Are you arguing that parents should abort children because they'll be too similar to each other?.... or that it's ok to abort because they'll basically get the same kid later on.....?
or are you just shitting out of your mouth?.... or what?
pt. 2
1. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because people go to heaven?
(tell you what, I'll hire a professional to kill you without your knowledge and you let me know how that works out for you.)
2. ........um, what?
3. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because the child might get sick and die if born?
Guess we better start rounding folks up in boxcars and send them off to camps, seeing as many will get sick and die.
(real answer to your question: they are both equally sad)
4. Yes. If Beethoven's, John Wesley's, or Ethel Waters, or mine, or anybody else's zygote is aborted, we are dead. We would have been someone, and now we won't.
As to your last comment there, I didn't quite get it, other than it seems you think killing a pre-born baby is ok because of society's problems, the earth's global warming, and a bunch of other nihilistic concerns that have nothing to with stopping a new human being's life.
That would concern and sadden me, but then I remembered that you're only 15, barely a high school freshman, and that you're trying your best.
Good effort, son. thumbsup
Re: An interesting quiz...
Originally posted by sithsaber408
How would you respond in these situations?1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she's pregnant with the 15th. They're living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?
2. The father is sick with the sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she's pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?
3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and now she's pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?
4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She's not married. Her fiance is not the father of the baby, and her fiance is upset. Would you recommend abortion?
In the first case you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century.
In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.
In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.
In the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ.
I find the pro-choice argument: "You can't use potentiality as a reason to ban abortions, since they could be good or bad, and aren't even people yet." to be quite a joke.
I was going to be aborted, if my father would have had his way. It was the choice of my mother to have me, whether she lost her marriage or not. She had me, and in fact lost the marriage.
But you know what, had she had the abortion, it's ME who wouldn't be here. Me, a human being with thoughts, dreams, fears, hopes, a job, a wife, and a life.
Not a "fetus",... an "it"...or a "choice".
A person.
Every abortion, whether you define it as murder, killing, or the prevention of life, takes away a human being who would have lived among us, just as surely as if I took handgun and shot you in the head.
Think about that the next time you think about the "right to choose."
i can see where your coming from. and what your saying makes some sense. but remember that what's really to blame for the referred phenomenon is NOT abortion but the way the world is. anytime a person isnt having sex theyr killing potential babies. any time a man masturbates he kills potential babies, anytime you marry sum1, you kill potential babies which would be born had you married sum1 else, anytime you eat sumthing your killing potential babies because the different protiens will create different sperms with different characteristics, every time a woman has menstruation shes killing potential babies as a potential egg is lost, infact every time an egg is FERTILISED by a sperm your killing potetnial babies because no more sperms can enter the egg, which also makes makes YOU a murderer before u were even born. the problem is tha any combination will give you a unique individual. if sum1 were to ask the other potential babies from the time you were created from fertilisation and stopped others they would be a mot more hurt than you are over having possibly had the chance of being abortioned, YOU a living thinking person who IS here, think about all the others who are NOT here because of you.
you could take the argument further and say that every time any interaction takes place with theputside world of an individual, he is KILLED as he is changed and not the person he was and an infinite number of possibilities of a person he COULD have been through another potential expirience are lost. so every living moment, an infinite amount of people with vey different future, thought,s personalities and SELVES not to mention memories that make them unique are beings lost.
im not being sarcastic here, this is a sad fact of the world that most people would rather not see, of all that COULD have been and all that is NOT. remember that ALL that consists of people as real and full of emotion as you are. and you dont have a right to be here any more than they do. that is the problem with potential, no way in hell can you say that abortion is good or bad because it destroes a POTENTIAL life, the mere FACT of your existance destroyes infinite futures from being formed.
now to the main point, is a person really a PERSON before he has the abilities to function as one or the fundamental capacity to THINK or feal or be self aware? most people would say yes believing in the soul or the natural egotistical self worth. and its quite normal. on the ohter hand its HARD to think of yourself as a chance happening with no fundamental purpose to your existance or NEED for it or your RIGHT to have it but thats sumthin of a more rational approach. so yes abortion is wrong WHEN the child has developed to a stage where even the most basic brain functioning comes into play. but before that{ste, cells etc} its NOT WRONG.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
[B]1. Yep. A person hasn't been made yet, so they aren't killed. (wasting a few boards isn't the same as burning down a house.)
Sometimes it's better to burn down a house then continue building especially if the foundation is rotten.
2. Nope. You're right, people are made great by their environments and upbringing. A perfect reason as to why you can't argue that aborted fetuses will become Hitlers, since the babies will be born with a clean slate, and only the parents or environment would make them evil.
A great reason why people shouldn't argue that aborted baby's should be kept. If children are shaped by upbringing then them being raised in an environment that doesn't want them won't really do a lot of good now will it?
(though you don't need money, my grandfather never completed college, nor was he rich, but started at IBM at 18, and over 30 years worked his way up to being the Head of H/R (hiring manager) and is the highest paid executive with no college degree in the San Jose branch.)
How nice for your grandfather, now look at how many people are still in the slums today. And then consider the fact that it's getting harder and harder to get a job without diploma's.
3. Yep. How many people will really become an evil dictator Nazi type? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Erasing all the others in prevention is ludicrous, and nobody has an abortion because they "think" their kid might be the next Charles Manson.
Of course it is, especially if the father is a rapists... And even if that isn't the case in the other cases then the parents could still be worried about medical risks for the mother, the child being unwanted the child being raised in poverty without hope for a future
Also, the "nobody's" are humans too, just as worth saving as a "great man". The point of the famous people in the original post was to give you an illustration of all the people who are killed by abortions, by giving some examples of well-know people whose circumstances showed that they "should" have been aborted, yet were not and made great contributions to society.
And how many are they? 1 in a 1000? Like Hitler or less? You don't know how children will turn out the chance that they will change the world for the better is at best as big as the chance that they will do something to make it worse and probably not even that. So the argument of what the child might turn out to be is crap, there is always a chance for this or that and an equal chance for the exact opposite.
4. Are you arguing that parents should abort children because they'll be too similar to each other?.... or that it's ok to abort because they'll basically get the same kid later on.....?
Now I have to agree with you here, this point is idiotic.
pt. 21. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because people go to heaven?
(tell you what, I'll hire a professional to kill you without your knowledge and you let me know how that works out for you.)
Tell you what, if you think they are lives and all life is in the hands of god then I don't see the problem with that really. Shouldn't matter. The fetus however is a possible child in the future not a child not even living.
2. ........um, what?
Well the question is quite simple but in the context meant by XYZ I am going to have to agree with you...
3. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because the child might get sick and die if born?
Yes actually this is a perfect reason, if there are risks for the health of the baby or the mother at birth, or if there are going to be defects at the baby (handicapped or whatever) then that is a good reason for abortion.
Guess we better start rounding folks up in boxcars and send them off to camps, seeing as many will get sick and die.
Difference is, they are alive. Medical science defines them as alive, not as a chance of someday becoming a life.
4. Yes. If Beethoven's, John Wesley's, or Ethel Waters, or mine, or anybody else's zygote is aborted, we are dead. We would have been someone, and now we won't.
And then again sometimes it saves the mother, sometimes it ends a killer sometimes the baby doesn't get born at all. Fact is the fetus isn't defined as alive by medical science. Fact is the fetus isn't able to stay alive without the mother. So the mother shouldn't be forced to take care of her children. Once the child is born she can give it up for adoption or the child can be removed from her, while she is pregnant that is impossible and she has to suffer.
Originally posted by sithsaber408But you're still preventing the life of someone. Which you said is killing here.
1. Yep. A person hasn't been made yet, so they aren't killed. (wasting a few boards isn't the same as burning down a house.)
Originally posted by sithsaber408
4. Yes. If Beethoven's, John Wesley's, or Ethel Waters, or mine, or anybody else's zygote is aborted, we are dead. We would have been someone, and now we won't.
Originally posted by sithsaber408you do know that the nazis were just like real people, hard to believe but they treated what they were doing like any other job, they were not evil, just ignorant. Like you.
2. Nope. You're right, people are made great by their environments and upbringing. A perfect reason as to why you can't argue that aborted fetuses will become Hitlers, since the babies will be born with a clean slate, and only the parents or environment would make them evil.
Originally posted by sithsaber408In a capatilist country like yours, I think being rich does matter.
(though you don't need money, my grandfather never completed college, nor was he rich, but started at IBM at 18, and over 30 years worked his way up to being the Head of H/R (hiring manager) and is the highest paid executive with no college degree in the San Jose branch.)
Originally posted by sithsaber408No, you're right, but that's not what I said. I said the chances of having a great man is near enough the same chance of having a bad man or a nobody
3. Yep. How many people will really become an evil dictator Nazi type? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Erasing all the others in prevention is ludicrous, and nobody has an abortion because they "think" their kid might be the next Charles Manson.
Originally posted by sithsaber408But the validity of the post, is next to nothing. "Nobodys" are humans too, I agree, but they affect society in bad ways more than good, as I've already mentioned.
Also, the "nobody's" are humans too, just as worth saving as a "great man". The point of the famous people in the original post was to give you an illustration of all the people who are killed by abortions, by giving some examples of well-know people whose circumstances showed that they "should" have been aborted, yet were not and made great contributions to society.
Originally posted by sithsaber408The latter. But I didn't say they'll get the same kid, I said they'll get a similar kid, and evolution has proven that things get better as they develop. The environment, society, the sperm and eggs used to make children, etc.
4. Are you arguing that parents should abort children because they'll be too similar to each other?.... or that it's ok to abort because they'll basically get the same kid later on.....?
Originally posted by sithsaber408I could ask you the very same.
or are you just shitting out of your mouth?.... or what?
Originally posted by sithsaber408Well, lots of other people talk about "heaven", why can't I?
1. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because people go to heaven?
Originally posted by sithsaber408Nah, being atheist and all, I wouldn't want to die.
(tell you what, I'll hire a professional to kill you without your knowledge and you let me know how that works out for you.)
Originally posted by sithsaber408It's a simple question. What makes killing immoral, that doesn't fall under the above catagory.
2. ........um, what?
Originally posted by sithsaber408Well that has happened before. Families can't handle the amount of children, so their children have less money to pay for health care, education, injury claims, etc. And the defects at/during virth, what outcome will that give?
3. Now you're arguing that abortions are ok because the child might get sick and die if born?
Originally posted by sithsaber408What is the purpose of these pointless ignorant "jokes"?
Guess we better start rounding folks up in boxcars and send them off to camps, seeing as many will get sick and die.
Originally posted by sithsaber408Then you agree that abortion is more of an "early death", like euthanasia.
(real answer to your question: they are both equally sad)
Originally posted by sithsaber408But my point is, is that killing, or murder?
4. Yes. If Beethoven's, John Wesley's, or Ethel Waters, or mine, or anybody else's zygote is aborted, we are dead. We would have been someone, and now we won't.
Originally posted by sithsaber408Ermm, did you read it? It states the bad things a new random human causes. I mean, we've had a billion people on the earth in the last century, and where has that gotten us? There are too many humans on the planet, it's time to prevent that.
As to your last comment there, I didn't quite get it, other than it seems you think killing a pre-born baby is ok because of society's problems, the earth's global warming, and a bunch of other nihilistic concerns that have nothing to with stopping a new human being's life.
Originally posted by sithsaber408This is discrimination, which means you aren't taking me seriously because I am different. I wonder how this would look if other people were watching?
That would concern and sadden me, but then I remembered that you're only 15, barely a high school freshman, and that you're trying your best.Good effort, son. thumbsup
Originally posted by sithsaber408Such a troll.