Abortion

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, that was my question.
By logic, you should answer first.
-AC

Always best to double check. By logic I say no, but I know enough about it to know why it is wrong, and why it cannot be allowed to be continued at the rate it is being used- and for senseless uses.

But no, no prior contact with it. No idea of what it would be like for the woman. Nothing at all.

Thats interesting, isnt it? Arent I interesting? 😉

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Anyway, now I've had my fun, to topic: Has anyone here actually had personal experience with abortion? Or close experience with?

-AC

Originally posted by The Black Ghost

Thats interesting, isnt it? Arent I interesting? 😉

RJ, when you're done weeping like a teased vagina (Assuming you know what one is like besides your own.), can you answer this, so I know we don't have to go over it again:

Why insist I believe that of myself when I've told you more times than I can count, that it isn't?

My word over myself is law, regarding my beliefs. I.e: If I'm telling you I do not think something, and you are telling me I am, I am right, you are wrong.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Always best to double check. By logic I say no, but I know enough about it to know why it is wrong, and why it cannot be allowed to be continued at the rate it is being used- and for senseless uses.

You're confused. You know why you think it's wrong, it's not universally wrong. It's a moral thing, and those are subjective. You don't like it, fine, but in light of this, and being a male:

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
No idea of what it would be like for the woman. Nothing at all.

You should probably just shut up and mind your own business.

Wait...I remember you. I banished you shamelessly from this thread along with Whob, it's taken you a long recovery time. Shame you couldn't use it to brush up on debate skills.

-AC

Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
Well.. One of my sisters had an abortion. I was her hand through it and shoulder after it.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Always best to double check. By logic I say no, but I know enough about it to know why it is wrong, and why it cannot be allowed to be continued at the rate it is being used- and for senseless uses.

But no, no prior contact with it. No idea of what it would be like for the woman. Nothing at all.

Thats interesting, isnt it? Arent I interesting? 😉

For the attention of The Black Ghost:

"China and India are prime examples WHY NOT to increase the population.".

You said this, but aren't you pro-lets force every pregnant woman to give birth, in an already over-populated world?

I'll be here while you think of a reply.

-AC

Originally posted by StyleTime
Really? Would you have supported her had she chosen to keep the baby? Yes or no.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
RJ, when you're done weeping like a teased vagina (Assuming you know what one is like besides your own.), can you answer this, so I know we don't have to go over it again:

[b]Why insist I believe that of myself when I've told you more times than I can count, that it isn't?

My word over myself is law, regarding my beliefs. I.e: If I'm telling you I do not think something, and you are telling me I am, I am right, you are wrong.

You're confused. You know why you think it's wrong, it's not universally wrong. It's a moral thing, and those are subjective. You don't like it, fine, but in light of this, and being a male:

You should probably just shut up and mind your own business.

Wait...I remember you. I banished you shamelessly from this thread along with Whob, it's taken you a long recovery time. Shame you couldn't use it to brush up on debate skills.

-AC [/B]

And I thought i was talking to a twelve year old! Look who owns the house now! Sheesh! YOU banished ME from this thread? OH, you're asking for it now. You want a debate... Ill give you a debate.

Your word over yourself may be ultimate law...but remember that only goes as far as yourself...not those you affect. You cant rob someone. You cant kill someone. (NOT in this society) so you also cant kill your children. Simple as that.

And dont give me and BS about how it aint your child, because I dont care if it can think or is intelligent or just a bunch of dumb cells...its still your child, its still a life.

--------------------------

Moral obligations do change, they are subjective...but there are some ---we call them LAWS---that are cemented into stone. So you cant say that all morals are just self-fantasies. Sure, abortion's not up there as a law yet...but its still there, and its still part of human conscience to feel something when you get an abortion -maybe its not that much of a regret, but its enough to say that there really is something there fighting instinct.

--------------------------------

Oh, and im not a woman...so therefore--I have no say in this argument??? What if I was the father and I got someone pregnant-for instance. Since it was half ME that got her into the situation itself, its at least HALF my responsibility as to what happens to the child. You cant shove out men just because we dont have the same body parts...thats called discrimination. I dont know what country you come from, but in America, you really cant do that.

Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
Yes, I would have.

It's like you're .......pro-choice.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
For the attention of The Black Ghost:

"China and India are prime examples WHY NOT to increase the population.".

You said this, but aren't you pro-lets force every pregnant woman to give birth, in an already over-populated world?

I'll be here while you think of a reply.

-AC

Lets take the old deer-overpopulation scenario: Man hunts wolves-wolves die out. Deers overpopulate without predators and in smaller environments. Man goes and kills all the deer to make up for the problem he started in the first place. ......I dont call that a solution.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
And I thought i was talking to a twelve year old! Look who owns the house now! Sheesh! YOU banished ME from this thread? OH, you're asking for it now. You want a debate... Ill give you a debate.

These boots won't stop shaking.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Your word over yourself may be ultimate law...but remember that only goes as far as yourself...not those you affect.

Indeed. Bearing in mind that just because you are affected, doesn't mean my actions are affecting you. People get insulted all the time by things not intended to insult them, you can't ban everything you dislike.

I'll ask you the question RJ dodged; would you ban all the TV shows you dislike, but never ever watch?

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
You cant rob someone.

Of what? Personal rights? Because that's more important than any possession, and you're attempting to rob people of that.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
You cant kill someone. (NOT in this society) so you also cant kill your children. Simple as that.

It's not classed as a human, it's not illegal. You CAN do whatever you want in this world as long as it does not infringe upon the personal freedoms of other human beings. Scientifically and legally, a foetus is not one.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
And dont give me and BS about how it aint your child, because I dont care if it can think or is intelligent or just a bunch of dumb cells...its still your child, its still a life.

Wait...you don't care that it's just a bunch of cells? Fair play, but then don't go and say "It's still your child.". Because it's not a child, it's cells. If you would protect those cells as you WOULD with a child, fine, but they are scientifically not the same thing, and no, saying "I see them as the same." doesn't count toward anything but rendering your argument dead.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Moral obligations do change, they are subjective...but there are some ---we call them LAWS---that are cemented into stone. So you cant say that all morals are just self-fantasies.

I can, I will. They are.

All morals are subjective, but some morals are acted upon in ways that infringe upon personal freedoms in dangerous ways. Someone might think murder is morally ok, they're not wrong, they are free to THINK it all day long, but when they act upon it, the only thing TO do is restrict them. Abortion is not infringing on any human being's personal rights.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Sure, abortion's not up there as a law yet...but its still there, and its still part of human conscience to feel something when you get an abortion -maybe its not that much of a regret, but its enough to say that there really is something there fighting instinct.

Maybe it's the relief the woman's been needing and she has a better life as a result. Many options, Ghost.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Oh, and im not a woman...so therefore--I have no say in this argument??? What if I was the father and I got someone pregnant-for instance. Since it was half ME that got her into the situation itself, its at least HALF my responsibility as to what happens to the child. You cant shove out men just because we dont have the same body parts...thats called discrimination. I dont know what country you come from, but in America, you really cant do that.

You shoot your load, she houses it, incubates it, feeds it, births it. Guess who my vote for the final say is going to? Yes, exactly.

I DO believe father's rights shouldn't be as set in stone. I believe that if a man is tricked into making a woman pregnant, or they both agree on getting rid of it and she changes her mind, that he should not have to pay child support, for one thing. I'm all for fairness.

Fairness is not: "Oh I want the baby, so like...you go through all the shit, and WE'LL deal with it when it comes out.". She may not want to do that, she doesn't owe it to you. If she DOESN'T want it, but still agrees to give birth for you, then you should take that baby and do everything on your own, because you wanted it, you made her have it, it's YOUR problem.

I thought you said you were gonna give me a debate? I schooled you before, I'll school you now.

Also; I never said abortion was an answer to overpopulation, I said it would hardly help if it was banned.

So take you and your two penny argument, pull on your thinking cap, and then return to me when you can give me a debate. I get offended when promises aren't kept.

-AC

Originally posted by StyleTime
Interesting. An unwavering support regardless of her decision. It's almost as if you were supporting her [B]choice. Is it possible, nay probable, that you, or anyone else, is not pro-abortion at all? Yes, it's like you're something altogether different.

It's like you're .......pro-choice. [/B]

Its not that hard to break down really.
Abortion is not an easy decision to make, but it is one that is our right to make.

I can't believe I'm having to raise this question again, though it gets dodged by EVERYONE who is anti-abortion:

How many of you are on the list of people able and willing to adopt a child?

Because if you're forcing these women to give birth, it's only fair you do your part to raise them, since they don't want them.

In the event you "don't care" that the parents don't want them, and feel that they should be punished for their "irresponsibility" or actions, then one must ask how much you truly care for the foetus to bring it into a world where it will not be loved, just so you can use it as a tool and reason to gain a personal victory and exact punishment.

I will be keeping a personal count of who dodges this, and who doesn't.

Sometimes this debate is just too easy.

-AC

That reminds me...

Originally posted by The Black Ghost

The choice of having an abortion means you think they are ok, therefore you are dictionarily Pro-abortion, even if you 'choose' not to have one yourself. Thats the fundamental truth of the matter. No one just wants to accept it.

If you are pro-choice, yes, all of the above are okay by you, but you are also pro-all-of-the-above, which means you are pro-abortion in there as well.

We dont give people the legal "choice" of doing drugs...at least not in America. Imagine how much worse the drug trade would be if they were legalized and everyone had the right to "choose". Thats billions of tax dollars lost annually.

Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
Abortions are legal, Drugs arent, how is this comparable?

One of my favorite quotes by Bill Hicks:

"I'm not a girl, I'm a guy you know? But at the same time, I tell ya how you can solve this abortion issue right now. Ready? Those unwanted babies that single moms leave in alleys and in dumpsters? Leave about 12 of those on the steps of The Supreme Court. This is over. Like that. "You guys said we had to have them? Then you guys...****ING RAISE 'EM." "Raise 'em then, you ****ing raise 'em. YOU raise 'em. You said I had to have it? Then it's yours. ****. It's yours..Take it"

'Nuff said.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
These boots won't stop shaking.

be afraid. At least until I leave. Getting late.

Indeed.

Good, you see we agree on something. 😂

Of what? Personal rights? Because that's more important than any possession, and you're attempting to rob people of that.

Rights are...hmm...lets use the word SUBJECTIVE. You dont have unlimited rights. There is no country that gives you unlimited rights. The only reason you can get a medical abortion-mind you-is from someone else's work in the scientific arena. Or else itd just be coat hangers and we all know how much those hurt...

It's not classed as a human, it's not illegal. You CAN do whatever you want in this world as long as it does not infringe upon the personal freedoms of other human beings. Scientifically and legally, a foetus is not one.

You know what? Youre right. Youre dam right. Its not a human. What does that change??? Is there suddenly some huge gap there? Does the law and moral consciense just shut off because it is not scientifically a human? ....So what you are saying, is that anything is ok, as long as it doest effect those silly humans. 🙂 Hmm...well, Hitler thought the Jews were subhuman too didnt he? Guess what, everyone beleived him. Hence the holocaust. We make categories, as humans, of what everyone, and everything is...and then give priority based on whos most intelligent, whats the most important. What if they cloned retarded humans for spare body parts, and just changed the DNA to make them just a smidge unhuman. Does that suddenly make it right???

.........the disgrace of the modern world.

Wait...you don't care that it's just a bunch of cells? Fair play, but then don't go and say "It's still your child.". Because it's not a child, it's cells. If you would protect those cells as you WOULD with a child, fine, but they are scientifically not the same thing.

Science. Isnt it nice. It tells us what to do. It tells us whats right and wrong. It tells us when a baby is not a baby. YAY science!

While you enjoy those test tubes, consider looking up the definition of "child". Here...look....I did it for you!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child Dictionary.com my friend. And was that...fetus...i saw there?!!!

I can, I will. They are.
All morals are subjective, but some morals are acted upon in ways that infringe upon personal freedoms in dangerous ways. Someone might think murder is morally ok, they're not wrong, they are free to THINK it all day long, but when they act upon it, the only thing TO do is restrict them. Abortion is not infringing on any human being's personal rights.

Fair enough. So think what you want -but you're wrong in my mind too, so i guess we're at a standoff.

Maybe it's the relief the woman's been needing and she has a better life as a result. Many options, Ghost.

Oh, I am releived!!! Lets just get rid of all of our babies and then we can be free of all the consequences of our stupid actions. If you have sex, at least be prepared for the possible, natural, outcome. And Im sorry if youve had some bad decisions in your life...but theres always help! Go to Ineedhelpwithmylife.com! Ive been there tons of times. 😆

You shoot your load, she houses it, incubates it, feeds it, births it. Guess who my vote for the final say is going to? Yes, exactly.

Well you wouldnt be doing ANY of that without us, so im so sorry. You can always blame god humans dont reproduce with spores or something.

I DO believe father's rights shouldn't be as set in stone. I believe that if a man is tricked into making a woman pregnant, or they both agree on getting rid of it and she changes her mind, that he should not have to pay child support, for one thing. I'm all for fairness.

Tricked into getting a woman pregnant? You been tricking anybody lately?

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE though: If a guy gets a girl pregnant, then he has no choice but to be able to support the child, because its his fault. Thats ethics, but sorry, its not scientific.

Fairness is not: "Oh I want the baby, so like...you go through all the shit, and WE'LL deal with it when it comes out.". She may not want to do that, she doesn't owe it to you. If she DOESN'T want it, but still agrees to give birth for you, then you should take that baby and do everything on your own, because you wanted it, you made her have it, it's YOUR problem.

I thought you said you were gonna give me a debate? I schooled you before, I'll school you now.

Also; I never said abortion was an answer to overpopulation, I said it would hardly help if it was banned.

So take you and your two penny argument, pull on your thinking cap, and then return to me when you can give me a debate. I get offended when promises aren't kept.
-AC

You certainly schooled me. Im...im just speechless!!! Your arguments full of as much crap as everything youve said about mine, so youd better stop pointing fingers.

And you never schooled me before and scared me away. I came here a few times and I barely posted much of anything. I just eventually stopped coming to KMC for a long time and only recently have i come back. I dont even remember you so that shows how much you owned me

Abortion should NEVER be an answer to overpopulation or any other problem.

Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
Yes, you are correct Ms. Time. I am pro-[b]choice. I was not there for her because she was having an abortion. I was there for her because she needed my support. Had she chose to let her pregnancy go full term, then I would have supported her equally.

Its not that hard to break down really.
Abortion is not an easy decision to make, but it is one that is our right to make. [/B]

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I can't believe I'm having to raise this question again, though it gets dodged by EVERYONE who is anti-abortion:

How many of you are on the list of people able and willing to adopt a child?

Because if you're forcing these women to give birth, it's only fair you do your part to raise them, since they don't want them.

In the event you "don't care" that the parents don't want them, and feel that they should be punished for their "irresponsibility" or actions, then one must ask how much you truly care for the foetus to bring it into a world where it will not be loved, just so you can use it as a tool and reason to gain a personal victory and exact punishment.

I will be keeping a personal count of who dodges this, and who doesn't.

Sometimes this debate is just too easy.

-AC

I'll get you an extra pencil Alpha Centauri. I predict the dodger count will be quite high. Again, my predictions have never been wrong.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I can't believe I'm having to raise this question again, though it gets dodged by EVERYONE who is anti-abortion:

How many of you are on the list of people able and willing to adopt a child?

Because if you're forcing these women to give birth, it's only fair you do your part to raise them, since they don't want them.

In the event you "don't care" that the parents don't want them, and feel that they should be punished for their "irresponsibility" or actions, then one must ask how much you truly care for the foetus to bring it into a world where it will not be loved, just so you can use it as a tool and reason to gain a personal victory and exact punishment.

I will be keeping a personal count of who dodges this, and who doesn't.

Sometimes this debate is just too easy.

-AC

Well, keeping an account now...i like your style.

Yes, I agree and would be personally happy to adopt.

It also comes down to fundamental thought. People cant be responsible, they dont care about others or actions many times. We rely today on technology to make everythign easy for us, to get us out of situations that normally we wouldnt be able to escape...and all for a good $$$.

And not allowing abortion is not a "punishment" -it is an outcome. Simple as that. Morally, and socially -they SHOULD be held accountable for their actions, but you cant do that in most cases. So adoption i support. What about it?

And the fact there are so many children who need adoption just means two things. A) We're not doing enough. B) There are a lot of unfortunate parents out there who have problems.

Luke Skywalker: "Your overconfidence is your weakness..." Couldnt help it.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Glad we cleared that up. I thought you [B]forced her to get one. Hahahah Silly huh?

[/B]

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
RJ, when you're done weeping like a teased vagina (Assuming you know what one is like besides your own.), can you answer this, so I know we don't have to go over it again:

[b]Why insist I believe that of myself when I've told you more times than I can count, that it isn't?

My word over myself is law, regarding my beliefs. I.e: If I'm telling you I do not think something, and you are telling me I am, I am right, you are wrong.[/b]

"my word over myself is law.".......This is everything. This is you caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar. funny thing is that you don't realize it.

You should probably just shut up and mind your own business.

Wait...I remember you. I banished you shamelessly from this thread along with Whob, it's taken you a long recovery time. Shame you couldn't use it to brush up on debate skills.

-AC

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Always best to double check. By logic I say no, but I know enough about it to know why it is wrong, and why it cannot be allowed to be continued at the rate it is being used- and for senseless uses.

But no, no prior contact with it. No idea of what it would be like for the woman. Nothing at all.

Thats interesting, isnt it? Arent I interesting? 😉

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Oh, and im not a woman...so therefore--I have no say in this argument??? What if I was the father and I got someone pregnant-for instance. Since it was half ME that got her into the situation itself, its at least HALF my responsibility as to what happens to the child. You cant shove out men just because we dont have the same body parts...thats called discrimination. I dont know what country you come from, but in America, you really cant do that.

If you impregnated a woman, that is the biological end of your contribution to a pregnancy. You're entitled to an opinion on whether or not she carries it to term. You are not entitled to the decision, unless you're planning on carrying it for 9 months and pushing it out of your vagina. If you didn't impregnate the woman, then you have no entitlement to any part in the decision of what she does or doesn't do.

What other people do as long as it is not harmful to you or any other person, is of no consequence to you.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
You know what? Youre right. Youre dam right. Its not a human. What does that change??? Is there suddenly some huge gap there? Does the law and moral consciense just shut off because it is not scientifically a human? ....So what you are saying, is that anything is ok, as long as it doest effect those silly humans. 🙂 Hmm...well, Hitler thought the Jews were subhuman too didnt he? Guess what, everyone beleived him. Hence the holocaust. We make categories, as humans, of what everyone, and everything is...and then give priority based on whos most intelligent, whats the most important. What if they cloned retarded humans for spare body parts, and just changed the DNA to make them just a smidge unhuman. Does that suddenly make it right???

.........the disgrace of the modern world.

Science. Isnt it nice. It tells us what to do. It tells us whats right and wrong. It tells us when a baby is not a baby. YAY science!

While you enjoy those test tubes, consider looking up the definition of "child". Here...look....I did it for you!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child Dictionary.com my friend. And was that...fetus...i saw there?!!!

Dictionary.com is a reference for the vernacular, not the scientific or medical. Your comments make it clear you know nothing of those latter.

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Oh, I am releived!!! Lets just get rid of all of our babies and then we can be free of all the consequences of our stupid actions. If you have sex, at least be prepared for the possible, natural, outcome. And Im sorry if youve had some bad decisions in your life...but theres always help! Go to Ineedhelpwithmylife.com! Ive been there tons of times. 😆

Originally posted by The Black Ghost
And not allowing abortion is not a "punishment" -it is an outcome. Simple as that. Morally, and socially -they SHOULD be held accountable for their actions, but you cant do that in most cases.

People who were responsible and took precautions, which failed should be held accountable for not being responsible and taking precautions... oh wait they did.

And as for the people who didn't plan ahead and thus must make the decision of whether or not to opt for an abortion, who you deem "should be punished." Who or what exactly gave you the authority to pass judgment on their actions that lead to the decision, or the decision made if it happens to be abortion? What relationship do you have to those people that gives you any stake in their lives? Oh that's right as already mentioned, none whatsoever.