Afro_Cheese> Okay dokey. A stone is dead 😉
It’s just an odd definition I think. Because “life” doesn’t mean “Not having the capacity to die”, if you understand what I mean.
But perhaps this is maybe exactly what the core of the problem is. We speak of life and death as black and white. Obviously the definition of “life” is not the complete opposite of the definition of “dead.” Maybe we really need an intermediate term… (And, no, crack-pots kindly abstain from telling me they were half-dead last Sunday morning). 🙂
6 months??? Here in DK the legal limit is 12 weeks. After that there has to be some serious health-issues to warrant an abortion. Basically the point is, that abortions should be conducted as early in the pregnancy as possible – it minimises the post-abortion symptoms of the woman/girl.
Yeah it is an odd definition but the English language rarely makes complete sense. I agree abortion is better off early.
Captain: I wish there was some way the guy could have a say too, but when it comes down to it if you don't believe in telling a woman what to do with her body, that applies to the father too. The man can't carry the baby for her so he can't stop her from getting an abortion any more than you or I.
In a perfect world the guy SHOULD have a say. If he wants an abortion and the woman doesn’t, then what? Or vice versa?
The thing is – if the girl doesn’t want to abort, there is NO WAY the guy can force her to. If she wants to and he doesn’t, he can’t stop her.
But it raises the question on support. If a guy and girl gets pregnant and he doesn’t want a child, and she does – why should he be forced to support the child? THIS has always eluded me…
I can understand that religious people like FE CANNOT get an abortion because of religious/moral issues… but the rest…
Ummm, okay I missed something. The father has duties and obligations as well as rights, but often, people try to take only the good thing that serves my selfish needs approach.
Omega, I don't mean to put your idea down completely here but perhaps part of it is a bit naive. There are ways for men to force woment to have an abortion. Most countries are rules by patriarchy, meaning what the man says goes. DOuble standards run amok. Abuse has been wrapped around broken down and dissected so much that it's easy to get confused. Take that horrible thought, rape, and then ask what type of rights and duties ought this father have....what rights does that unborn child have ??? he/she never asked to be conceived in violence, but he/she deserves a shot at life
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yes, in a perfect world, the father should have rights too. But my point is also that in this "perfect world" we've created here in the US (thanks to god mind you) the fact that he doesn't raises all sorts of issues and questions.
I guess I didn't finish what I had to say.
God you have to love Vodka....
My point is that the father deserves some rights..
But, despite that, the baby is still just that....kill it all you want.
One life is still just as worthless as the next..........
Julie> I think you’re missing my point completely.
That there are “ways” for men to force abortion on women in certain countries, does not mean this happens in OUR countries.
Where I am from – namely Denmark (Northern Europe) – the guy cannot force the woman to either keep an unwanted child, or get an abortion if she does not want to.
You seem to’ve missed out on the “in a perfect world”, too.
Capt> The problem is: Suppose I get pregnant and want and abortion, while the guy wants a child. Let’s even say he offers to be a sole parent. Should there be a law saying I had to go through pregnancy?
Naybean> It’s complicated. There are stories about girls who get pregnant to keep a guy. This I think is pretty terrible – a peculiar kind of enslavement if you like. So as long as the girl have sole decision-rights as to whether or not she wants to keep the child, a guy whose decision is overruled shouldn’t pay for the kid.
But how are we to know what the girl/guy promised each other? Maybe he initially said, he want a kid, two months later (past normal abortoion dead-line) he changes his mind…
its complicated omega. its a womans choice of course, but if she goes ahead and has the baby and expects the father to support it, then he should have the rights any father has. if he is solely against it, i don't know, i'm torn between the two. i believe in being responsible for ones actions... but if the woman decides to have the baby and the guy doesnt want one? what does he do?
Wear a condom in the first place. Seriously we already have enough dead beat dads in this world.. thats really not something we need to encourage. Yeah I've heard cases where the woman is wrong, but we can't excuse all guys from supporting their kid just because some woman are gold diggers. You really want to see even more people added to this "miserable" planet, take away the guy's worries of getting the girl pregnant.
Pr1983> Oh, I agree completely – it’s complicated. I suppose the day we grow kids in artificial wombs we’ll get over it, but until then…
On one hand: The woman’s the gender that had to carry a growing foetus for more than nine months. AND give birth, and nurture the new-born with milk. So much of new life depends ON the woman’s body, it should be her decision.
On the other hand: Men are more than sperm-donors! They should be. A single woman could in principle just sleep with some guy, get pregnant and have a child. What does a single man do?
I suppose the problem is, that we don’t know what the couple agreed upon when the girl found out she was pregnant. Sure, most modern couples will discuss the issue, and make a joint decision – but heck, I know of a guy who said to his wife he’d divorce her if she didn’t get pregnant. And a girl who said the same to her husband. And then there are the cases where the guy walks out on the 7-month pregnant girl, or after she gives birth.
As long as we don’t know what HE wanted initially, the paying-issue is hard to settle.
Ok.. i know two women who have deliberately got pregnant without informing their bf/husband. I know how difficult and unfair that is on men and i wouldnt ever expect them to take responsibility for a child they went out of their way not to have.
As for the guy walking out theres nothing you can do about it whether he stated it at the beginning of the pregnancy or not. but if that man doesnt want to be a part of his childs life then theres no point trying to force him cos he'll just take it out on the kid. Its just extremely unfortunate for the woman if she has to raise a child single handedly.
I dont however think that a man should be able to tell a woman she is not allowed to abort his child. I'd like to think that most women would be sensible enough to discuss it with the bloke involved the minute they find out about the pregnancy and in that sense the man has a say.