Wally West vs Cosmic Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because he's a different person, with different character growth etc? CIS full caps doesn't negate character.

What I did as a teenager would be very different to what I'd do as a 20 year old.

Not if you had the very same power set. It’s like I said, you can look at it two ways. He is using the very same power set. Plot is what it is, or why does Barry, Wally, etc fail to defeat their opponent within the second that the battle begins?

Well, because a variety of elements are in play of course. Character is indeed one of those elements, powers and abilities, but it is mainly plot that stops many things from happening in comics. The same reasoning can be applied to Thor with the Odin force, the very same force that allows the owner to bend time. Kind of like the Speed force which allows the owner or host to move faster than they could without it. Why doesn’t Thor do this more often? Well the same can be asked of Wally. Why doesn’t Wally always end the fight with Weather Wizard before he even blinks? Plot.

Two ways to viably look at this without seemingly pulling shit out of one’s ass.

Originally posted by Stoic
Not if you had the very same power set. It’s like I said, you can look at it two ways. He is using the very same power set. Plot is what it is, or why does Barry, Wally, etc fail to defeat their opponent within the second that the battle begins?

Well, because a variety of elements are in play of course. Character is indeed one of those elements, powers and abilities, but it is mainly plot that stops many things from happening in comics. The same reasoning can be applied to Thor with the Odin force, the very same force that allows the owner to bend time. Kind of like the Speed force which allows the owner or host to move faster than they could without it. Why doesn’t Thor do this more often? Well the same can be asked of Wally. Why doesn’t Wally always end the fight with Weather Wizard before he even blinks? Plot.

Two ways to viably look at this without seemingly pulling shit out of one’s ass.

Except I'm not asking why Thor doesn't do it more often.

I'm asking why Thor doesn't do it, period.

Not to mention, before the first synapse even fires in his brain to register that the battle has started, he'd be defeated.

Of course, you are too stubborn to acknowledge this, and cling to pulling random stuff that has no bearing on the actual thread

The CIS off makes pretty lopsided in favour of Flash, yeah?

CIS off, full capacity.

In the first picosecond, he speed steals Cosmic Thor and Mjolnir's speed. Thor becomes a statue, unable to even understand that he's in a fight.

Stealing Thor's "speed" might turn Flash into a statue...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except I'm not asking why Thor doesn't do it more often.

I'm asking why Thor doesn't do it, period.

Not to mention, before the first synapse even fires in his brain to register that the battle has started, he'd be defeated.

Of course, you are too stubborn to acknowledge this, and cling to pulling random stuff that has no bearing on the actual thread

With CIS off, this is what you get.

The Odin-Force, also known as the Power of the All-Father, All-Power, and - when wielded by Thor, the Thor-Force - is the power that enables Odin to be the most powerful of the Asgardian Gods. Pictured is the Odin-Force taking the form of a fallen Asgardian boy. This power is near-infinite and seems to allow Odin, and later Thor, to become almost invincible, and seems to allow them to rival the powers of the strongest beings in the universe. The limits of its power are unknown, but if overused, it forces the user to enter a deep sleep to recover - leaving them vulnerable in the process.

You’ve give the Speed force every available reason to win while ignoring that some beings may be immune to it’s effects, or may emit pulses that could disrupt his connection with the Speed force. CIS off means that they can prep for battle to a certain degree. Just as Doctor Strange has auto shields, the Odin Force also has protective spells that can bend time, or slow time down.

I understand what you are saying, but you may be unable or unwilling to consider other possibilities. Asgardian magic is by far some of the most powerful magic in Marvel. Doctor Strange makes mention of it’s power. Do you think that the Flash with CIS off would run all over the Beyonder? This version of Thor defeated a universal threat in Galactus with ease, and then destroyed his creator a much more powerful entity. Do you think that the Flash and his speed steal would work on RK Thor? Like he’d be hanging there in time when it no longer applied to him? Thor took hits from the Black Winter that were capable of collapsing enormous portions of the universe. I base this upon the initial display of power that was presented as he destroyed an entire universe in moments. That’s what you get when you mix Asgardian magic with the Power Cosmic. Both powers that are capable of bending time. CK Thor was about as powerful as Cosmic Iron Man/Micheal Korvak. There comes a time when you eventually run into powers that have so much variety that speed, and science no longer fully apply to them.

The Speed force can be defended against if a character has the power to defend against it. Speed force is science, while magic is magic.

How far up the chain can Wally speed steal?!

Originally posted by Stoic
With CIS off, this is what you get.

The Odin-Force, also known as the Power of the All-Father, All-Power, and - when wielded by Thor, the Thor-Force - is the power that enables Odin to be the most powerful of the Asgardian Gods. Pictured is the Odin-Force taking the form of a fallen Asgardian boy. This power is near-infinite and seems to allow Odin, and later Thor, to become almost invincible, and seems to allow them to rival the powers of the strongest beings in the universe. The limits of its power are unknown, but if overused, it forces the user to enter a deep sleep to recover - leaving them vulnerable in the process.

You’ve give the Speed force every available reason to win while ignoring that some beings may be immune to it’s effects, or may emit pulses that could disrupt his connection with the Speed force. CIS off means that they can prep for battle to a certain degree. Just as Doctor Strange has auto shields, the Odin Force also has protective spells that can bend time, or slow time down.

I understand what you are saying, but you may be unable or unwilling to consider other possibilities. Asgardian magic is by far some of the most powerful magic in Marvel. Doctor Strange makes mention of it’s power. Do you think that the Flash with CIS off would run all over the Beyonder? This version of Thor defeated a universal threat in Galactus with ease, and then destroyed his creator a much more powerful entity. Do you think that the Flash and his speed steal would work on RK Thor? Like he’d be hanging there in time when it no longer applied to him? Thor took hits from the Black Winter that were capable of collapsing enormous portions of the universe. I base this upon the initial display of power that was presented as he destroyed an entire universe in moments. That’s what you get when you mix Asgardian magic with the Power Cosmic. Both powers that are capable of bending time. CK Thor was about as powerful as Cosmic Iron Man/Micheal Korvak. There comes a time when you eventually run into powers that have so much variety that speed, and science no longer fully apply to them.

The Speed force can be defended against if a character has the power to defend against it. Speed force is science, while magic is magic.

OF is near infinite?

Speed Force is infinite. Since you like those terms.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
How far up the chain can Wally speed steal?!

Until physics no longer apply.

Science doesn’t always apply to magic. While magic bends science, while also being augmented by the Power Cosmic another infinite source of power. CK Thor had both.

He resisted assaults that would have destroyed a large pockets of a universe. The Black Winter was seen destroying an entire reality. Those very same powers were not enough to put CK Thor down for the count.

CIS off means that CK Thor knows exactly who he is facing and can use the Odin Force as he sees fit. Full cap would say that magical Asgardian runes would be in play, as would vast amounts of Cosmic power buffing him in basically all ways.

Speed can be defeated by magic.

Except Thor still relies on science. His limbs, his muscles, his neurons etc still fire and utilise kinetic energy.

If he cannot move, cannot think, then magic is for naught.

Isn't Speed Force also controls space-time and it was stated is something more terrific than magic or somesuch?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Isn't Speed Force also controls space-time and it was stated is something more terrific than magic or somesuch?

Are you talking about this?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are you talking about this?

No, I was referring to this scene ( the Speed Force is far more horrific than magic or science part, and it keeps the Multiverse moving)

https://ibb.co/RSqsNbK

And for the Speed Force can control time. I think it based on multiple facts depicted such

For examples

Well known feat of Flash manipulating entire space-time and moving it forward
https://ibb.co/F372zg0
https://ibb.co/vL3JL1W
https://ibb.co/q0RMbBc
https://ibb.co/SXmWFBd
https://ibb.co/9y9ZMRh
https://ibb.co/k51hRjV

We also have bio states Speed Force controls all motions in the Multiverse. Through it, time itself moves forward or backwards
https://ibb.co/qd4CpqR

The writer who wrote the above scenes( Speed Force keeps the Multiverse moving, Flash manipulated entire space-time to banish the Turtle) also took similar approach about it

https://www.comicsbeat.com/sdcc-joshua-williamson-interview/

We also have Thawne states the Speed Force IS time, technically, all of time
https://ibb.co/sy5QqPb

We also have Wally stops time by tapping the Speed Force in a different way
https://ibb.co/MZdwCkS
https://ibb.co/kX4n8FM

Etcetcetcetcetc

So, yeah, I would say you could control time via the Speed Force, since it controls all motions in the Multiverse, which includes time

awesome post

DS is stroking it as we speak

In the visible scan, it specifically states that the Speed force gives the universe motion, but what if one gains motion from an other worldly source? What if they can control the flow of time in a limited area of effect? Would the Speed force rob Galactus of movement? The Living Tribunal? Micheal Korvak? RK Thor? Cosmic Iron-Man? The Beyonder? Of course not, because they can bend time, negating the effects of a speed steal. They are even capable of trapping opponents in time loops. The ones that are magical tend to last for a long while as well.

Magic can counteract speed, as can reality manipulation.

Mostly any other way is impossible. There are forces in comics that are able to operate outside of time magical or otherwise, (Adam Warlock does it from time to time as an example).

These things do not occur in comics often, because they are considered as de·us ex ma·chi·na. Same as Wally’s full speed while fighting Weather Wizard, The Top, Pied Piper, Captain Cold etc.

DS made a great point when he said that writers want flashy fights and are less concerned with power levels in general.

How often was CK Thor ever pitted against a speedster of Wally’s caliber? Never right? Why would we ever see him ready himself for battle against anything like him? Never right? Does he have the capacity to erect both cosmic, and Asgardian defenses and wards alike? Auto shields built into his very being by the power cosmic, and mystical wards capable of bending space and time.

He seemed pretty regal to me, and by far more wise than he was in his younger days. Being able to detect distant occurrences and such. Is he allowed to come into the match under these conditions? He was also in psychic combat with the Black Winter. We know that there were many levels involved in their battle than what is simply on the surface.

I’ll read the other examples, but not seeing why time manipulation, and many other abilities are off of the table?

Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except Thor still relies on science. His limbs, his muscles, his neurons etc still fire and utilise kinetic energy.

If he cannot move, cannot think, then magic is for naught.

The Power Cosmic changed him. Then you have wards of protection and full time stops, as well as debuffs, universal level TP assaults, physics bending magical and soul assaults. Wally still has a mortal soul.

^ How exactly does Wally's mortal soul bear on this match-up?

Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

what level would u place cosmic thor

Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

That's my question.