Firestorm vs Silver Surfer

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Guys, just so you all know... None of this matters and no one wins or loses a comical debate over fictional characters.

"And this is exactly why I spend so much time on KMC."

- Whirly, September 3rd

Originally posted by Astner
It works some times, but it will not help you with obscure scans at all.

But it's not my job to help people source the evidence they use, and if they don't know where it's from they shouldn't be using it in the first place. I source my evidence and I expect people to do the same.

Yeah, but DS tends to use easily accessible ones from my experience.

With more obscure stuff, you should try out using combined search engines, such as Saucenao or Duplichecker.

They can even track pics of your mom 👆

It's not a battlezone or a capability thread right here. Just a casual versus thread. Don't have such high expectations of everyone providing sources and being academic about it.

Originally posted by MrMind
Wrong

There is always a winner, the person who is more knowledgeable

That's said I think it's destructive to think of it in terms of winners and losers, because it conditions people to cheat their way into "winning," or in case of a loss save face by some technicality rather than conceding and reaching a meaningful conclusion.

This is why I'd suggest the Steel Man approach to debating.

Originally posted by Astner
No one is moving the goal post. You're just upset that you lost the debate and now you're trying save face by sticking up to a point that's completely irrelevant to the thread at hand.

Firestorm doesn't control the Matrix, he never did, it's just the source of his power. He's nuke-level in terms out high-end energy output.

I lost it? Where?

All I said was that the Firestorm in this thread could transmute organics.

That he could destroy the universe.

That he can phase.

None of those statements are false or incorrect. Your emotions are getting the better of you, so I think you need to go and touch some grass (or ass, or both, up to you) and come back when you're a bit more levelheaded.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Yeah, but DS tends to use easily accessible ones from my experience.
.

Precisely. I don't sit on some obscure mound of hidden knowledge, my scans are pretty common knowledge for many.

Edit: I never said he could control the Firestorm Matrix to destroy the Universe (although, nothing stopping him all he needs do is argue with himself apparently lol). You using this strawman is a bit disingenuous and disappointing.

Silver Surfer can make knowledge into power with the Power Cosmic.
I’d give him the win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well I was comparing the destructive power of the power levels contained within them.

One can destroy planets. One can destroy entire galaxies, or the universe. The scales are very different, I agree with you.

Well.....it's the Big Bang.

So yes, it has exploded once before. Astner's mistake was in assuming Firestorm was limited to city level blasts. These are fictional characters - what I am pointing out is that Firestorm contained the power to level the universe.

Now, is it something he can conjure at will? I never said this. I never said he enters this match firing off universe destroying blasts at Surfer. Merely that Firestorm had a high level of destructive power within him. Is this mere potential? Perhaps. But it's there.

Originally posted by Ambient
That is an insane implied destructive power however I do agree with Aster, the destructive power shown between this two is on a completely different level. Has there been any instance exhibited on panel regarding matrix destabilizing to near critical due to this? From what I’m getting on that scan it’s not even a sure bet that FS could pull off that move base on Prof Stein, “at an emotional equilibrium, near zero. but agitated? one in a million, one in a hundred thousand?” That’s a huge margin there compared that to what Surfer done on panel.

Well all that destructive potential is now moot. That spark of the big bang within the matrix is just apparently a doorway to antimatter universe.

Surfer can teleport into different dimensions and he does it on a whim. No emotional baggage stuff.

https://i.imgur.com/uTVtcJd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KNCWn3R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7eqkQk0.jpg

Originally posted by Ambient
Well all that destructive potential is now moot. That spark of the big bang within the matrix is just apparently a doorway to antimatter universe.

Surfer can teleport into different dimensions and he does it on a whim. No emotional baggage stuff.

https://i.imgur.com/uTVtcJd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KNCWn3R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7eqkQk0.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mNrPnD96N98/VtQEBcgUrJI/AAAAAAAAEc0/BzTaOi-BsyA/s1600-Ic42/RCO005.jpg

Read up. And the second scan is from Forever Evil, years after Brightest Day.

Hmm, I actually think there are two possibilities for them getting to AMU, one is they were teleported by the White Lantern Entity, the other is their detonation transportated them to AMU.

But I do feel it is more likely the detonation that teleported them to AMU wasn't The Big Bang detonation that Professor Stein was referring to, they just mistook it as it.

Later in the conclusion of that story, his matrix was damaged and he was going to started the detonation( likely referring to The Big Bang detonation) in a few months

https://ibb.co/8XFHQDJ

That was also mentioned in his bio, more specifically, the DC Comics The Ultimate Character Guide 2011( around the Brightest Day story arc, so it seems to cement the notion that the detonation that trasnported him into AMU, isn't the one that Stein was referring to)

Firestorm must be extremely careful with his powers or he could destroy the universe

https://ibb.co/ZXYCBFJ

qwerty is so sexy

Point is the Matrix went bang on panel and the universe stayed the same - you can’t sugar coat that.

“Somehow when we detonated, we were drawn into the centre of the shadow hive.” - key word is detonation - as in Universal destruction but nada happened

There are obviously different levels to the detonation. As the end of the storyline shows.

I have to disagree on that! We have been given detailed information on what the FireStorm matrix is, it’s correlation to the spark of the big bang and it’s premises to the Brightest day arc; of all the given information regarding the matrix, there is not a mention or hint as to the different levels of detonation - this is only speculation on your part. Fact is it detonated and it did not destroy the Universe.

Silver Surfer destructive output we have seen on panel far surpasses FireStorm period.

It isn't speculation on my part though. We are told multiple times that he can destroy the universe - I did not make that up.

He exploded, but did not destroy the universe. In fact, as you note, there is a chance this explosion does not destroy the universe - which is what happened. I did not make that up either.

Again, remember the original point I was challenging of Astner's:

Originally posted by Astner
Silver Surfer is capable destroying planets

And Firestorm is capable of destroying the Universe.

Right! That is the plot given to FS on the brightest day arc storyline however when that climatic moment happened, that supposed premises was null’ed and since there are no mention regarding different levels of destructive power the spark within the matrix have, the only likely conclusion at this time is that it does not have enough force to trigger Big Bang - based on the fact that it detonated.

I said speculation in your part because there is not a single statement; hint or clue, a mention regarding supposed different level of detonation. Your basing the point of your argument on the supposed blank statement of FS causing the destruction of the universe to which was proven false upon again - the detonation of the matrix.

But the statement did not say that 10/10 times it will destroy the universe, did it?

It said there was a 1/100,000 chance (I don't recall the precise statement, but you know of it as you called it out).

So.....no contradiction. He is capable of destroying the Universe. No one said he has it at his fingertips, or can summon that power at will, or that it will always happen.

My point, in case it was not clear, was that FS is capable of destroying the universe, when Astner mentioned Surfer was capable of destroying planets.

Yeah, I mean it doesn't necessarily contradict anything that Professor Stein said.

Aside from what DS said

We have some hints in that story( maybe is WLE’s interference, or different explosion)

We also have bio suggests such reading, and in Brightest Day TPB format also mentions Firestorm could wipe out universal lives IIRC

We then have Forever Evil, which published just a few years later from Brightest Day, also brought the same concept that Firestorm Matrix Detonation is the equivalent.of second The Big Bang

Connect all these dots, I would lend toward the conclusion that there are different. types of explosions

I don't know why there couldn't be different 'levels' of detonation..? One caused by complete destabilization of the Matrix(which would spark a new big bang, per multiple sources), and another caused by partial destabilization of the Matrix(which may have very well been what we saw in BD.)

Stein just didn't want to risk it either way, which is why he wanted to keep the boys as calm as possible while he tried to figure things out.

This statement is not in reference to the detonation levels of the matrix but rather the percentages of the emotional spectrum of the host within the matrix in triggering the stability of it.

We’ll it detonated and it didn’t destroy the Universe, so that point is pretty much null’ed … There need to be some proof of evidence that the matrix can release varying levels of destructive force when it destabilized or a mention in regards to it being able to be partially destabilize - [B] the fact is when it becomes unstable it will cause universal destruction [\B] this is a given information, which was proven false when it detonated, anything else is speculative.

Surfer > > > FS destructive capability shown on panel.