Firestorm vs Silver Surfer

Started by DarkSaint8515 pages

Originally posted by Astner
If you're going to disregard a scan due to its age, why do you fall back on even older scans? Moreover, why aren't you sourcing your scans?

That argument hinges on a technicality. There wouldn't be any point in specifying that his power is to transmute inorganic matter if that was not a limitation of his power.

Ironically, there's only two scenes here that suggests that he can transmute organic matter are the first two from the bottom. Since in all other cases he's transmuting inorganic matter into organic matter.

But fair enough, I'll grant you that Firestorm can transmute organinc matter too.

But this doesn't overcome the massive discrepancy of scale between the powers of Firestorm and the Silver Surfer, let alone the versatility. Silver Surfer is capable destroying planets and generating black holes, not to mention time travel and phase through walls.

Yes, but arbitrary limitations to powers aren't uncommon. There are plenty of characters with quirky limitations to their powers.

Molecule Man couldn't manipulate organic matter until the Beyonder lifted that limitation. I'm not sure if it's still canon, but it was the case during Secret Wars II.

Those happen to be some of the most recent ones, so that's good. I also explicitly called out my own use of old scans, and moved onto new ones. I like to take my readers on a wondrous journey.

But you've admitted your error, so no use beating it.

Next item, you say Surfer has the power to destroy planets. Cool.

https://imgur.com/a/RhQIXgc

Firestorm is THE Big Bang.

He can also phase through walls. Not time travel, though, so there's that.

He can still create life from the inanimate.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Philo posted it a few pages ago though.


Okay, so he can manipulate organic substances but he wasn't always able to and DarkSaint was just gaslighting me, okay.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://imgur.com/a/RhQIXgc

Firestorm is THE Big Bang.


That's just the Matrix, the source of Firestorm's power, but it doesn't allow him to channel those levels of power.

It's a shit argument in the same vein of trying to argue that each of the Green Lantern are as powerful as the Lantern entities rather than just channeling a small fraction of their powers.

Originally posted by Astner
Okay, so he can manipulate organic substances but he wasn't always able to and DarkSaint was just gaslighting me, okay.

That's...not Jason Rusch. I know you don't see colour, my man, but..... That's a different character. See my post:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He can manipulate organic beings. Certainly the one stipulated in the OP.

Edit: to answer your edit, the scan literally says he has the power to destroy the entire universe. I was addressing your point that Surfer had the scale of power to destroy planets

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's...not Jason Rusch. I know you don't see colour, my man, but..... That's a different character. See my post:

There are two issues here. Firstly, you didn't criticize qwerty or Phil for referring to the scene, but you are criticize me for doing so.

Secondly, this thread isn't about Jason, it's about a Jason-Ronnie composite. So that's very much relevant.

I'm sure there are more references to this limitation, I just wanted something recent that I knew of, and I'm not going to go through the books to further reinforce the point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit: to answer your edit, the scan literally says he has the power to destroy the entire universe.

No it doesn't. It says that the Matrix is the Big Bang.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I was addressing your point that Surfer had the scale of power to destroy planets

Yes, and it's far beyond the scale of anything Firestorm has ever done.

Originally posted by Astner
There are two issues here. Firstly, you didn't criticize qwerty or Phil for referring to the scene, but you are criticize me for doing so.

Secondly, this thread isn't about Jason, it's about a Jason-Ronnie composite. So that's very much relevant.

No it doesn't. It says that the Matrix is the Big Bang.

Yes, and it's far beyond the scale of anything Firestorm has ever done.

Erm, read more:

Also, your initial post said he couldn't. I said he could. You then use an erroneous scan saying he could transmute inorganic material, as proof he couldn't transmute inorganic. That guy in your scan is Jason, I believe.

Which is erroneous, as he (Jason) has transmuted organic matter.
Edit: or at least, your initial post ASKED if he couldn't. I answered, but apparently you thought you knew better.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, read more:


Now you're posting a different scan, that's cropped and unsourced.

The destruction of the universe is not a power that Firestorm has at his finger-tips, rather it's a consequence of the Matrix destabilizing. All it really takes is a nuclear-level blast to take him out, see his battle with Captain Atom. Even less if you go by this scene:

Originally posted by Astner

- The Fury of Firestorm: The Nuclear Men #19

Originally posted by Astner
Now you're posting a different scan, that's cropped and unsourced.

The destruction of the universe is not a power that Firestorm has at his finger-tips, rather it's a consequence of the Matrix destabilizing. All it really takes is a nuclear-level blast to take him out, see his battle with Captain Atom. Even less if you go by this scene:


Its the same link my guy. I cropped it so you can focus as you seem most distracted on this fine day.

Click on my link, and scroll down I really didn't think I needed to spoonfeed you, of all people.

Moreover, you seem to be moving the goalposts. We're talking about the scales in power levels. One has the power levels to destroy planets, the other, the entire Universe.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its the same link my guy. I cropped it so you can focus as you seem most distracted on this fine day.

Click on my link, and scroll down I really didn't think I needed to spoonfeed you, of all people.


You're correct, there's more than one scan in the link.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Moreover, you seem to be moving the goalposts. We're talking about the scales in power levels. One has the power levels to destroy planets, the other, the entire Universe.

No we're not, we're talking about whether he's capable of competing with the Silver Surfer's powers. He's not.

You're attributing a destabiliziation of a source of Firestorm's power (which he has no direct control over) to him, ignoring the fact that even the best of Forestorm's feats have energy outputs comparable to nuclear bombs.

Page 1:
https://i.imgur.com/aPYiGdV.jpeg

Then, if you scrolled a little bit, you'd have seen page 2:
https://i.imgur.com/95WTZS1.jpeg

Originally posted by Astner
You're correct, there's more than one scan in the link.
maybe next time actually try to scroll down before you talk more shit to people, genius. 😂

for a guy who acts so "uppity" you sure are a real douchebag.

Originally posted by Astner
You're correct, there's more than one scan in the link.

No we're not, we're talking about whether he's capable of competing with the Silver Surfer's powers. He's not.

You're attributing a destabiliziation of a source of Firestorm's power (which he has no direct control over) to him, ignoring the fact that even the best of Forestorm's feats have energy outputs comparable to nuclear bombs.

Well I was comparing the destructive power of the power levels contained within them.

One can destroy planets. One can destroy entire galaxies, or the universe. The scales are very different, I agree with you.

Also, as I said, Firestorm can also phase, though he can't time travel. Happy to post the scans of him phasing as well if you want more educating?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
maybe next time actually try to scroll down before you talk more shit to people, genius.

It was an honest mistake, it happens.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
for a guy who acts so "uppity" you sure are a real douchebag.

How am I uppity when I'm the only one in the last two pages who've conceeded not only one, but two points?

Requesting people to motivate their arguments and post sources is the proper way to debate. If that makes you feel unconfortable then maybe it isn't for you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well I was comparing the destructive power of the power levels contained within them.

That's completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
One can destroy planets. One can destroy entire galaxies, or the universe. The scales are very different, I agree with you.

No, no, no. One has destroyed planets, created a star, and generated a black hole, and the other doesn't operate anywhere near that level of power.

The destabilization of the Matrix and the hypothesized Big Bang that allegedly follows is not within Firestorm's power to bring about.

And it's not like skepticism of the claim is unwarrented either because in the same scene the professor is apparently a conspiracy nut who thinks the Large Hadron Collider can generate a Big Bang.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, as I said, Firestorm can also phase, though he can't time travel. Happy to post the scans of him phasing as well if you want more educating?

You're missing the point. The Silver Surfer has all of Firestorm's powers and more, all of them tuned up to eleven.

Firestorm's best feat, as far as I know is only getting knocked out by a nuclear explosion.

- The Fury of Firestorm: The Nuclear Men #16

And that's ignoring that he was knocked out by a far weaker blast only two issues later.

Originally posted by Astner
Moreover, why aren't you sourcing your scans?

Google image search can provide you with the answers in just 2 clicks in most cases 😛

Originally posted by Astner
That's completely irrelevant.

No, no, no. One has destroyed planets, created a star, and generated a black hole, and the other doesn't operate anywhere near that level of power.

The destabilization of the Matrix and the hypothesized Big Bang that allegedly follows is not within Firestorm's power to bring about.

And it's not like skepticism of the claim is unwarrented either because in the same scene the professor is apparently a conspiracy nut who thinks the Large Hadron Collider can generate a Big Bang.

You're missing the point. The Silver Surfer has all of Firestorm's powers and more, all of them tuned up to eleven.

Firestorm's best feat, as far as I know is only getting knocked out by a nuclear explosion.

- The Fury of Firestorm: The Nuclear Men #16

And that's ignoring that he was knocked out by a far weaker blast only two issues later.


Not irrelevant to me. I was responding to this part:

Originally posted by Astner

But this doesn't overcome the massive discrepancy of scale between the powers of Firestorm and the Silver Surfer, let alone the versatility. Silver Surfer is capable destroying planets and generating black holes, not to mention time travel and phase through walls.

Firestorm is capable of destroying the Universe. Whether he does it consciously, unconsciously, by a twiggle of his fingers, by thinking about it, or by arguing with himself, is moot.

You trying to move the goalposts doesn't change this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Firestorm is capable of destroying the Universe. Whether he does it consciously, unconsciously, by a twiggle of his fingers, by thinking about it, or by arguing with himself, is moot.

You trying to move the goalposts doesn't change this.


No one is moving the goal post. You're just upset that you lost the debate and now you're trying save face by sticking up to a point that's completely irrelevant to the thread at hand.

Firestorm doesn't control the Matrix, he never did, it's just the source of his power. He's nuke-level in terms out high-end energy output.

Guys, just so you all know... None of this matters and no one wins or loses a comical debate over fictional characters.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Google image search can provide you with the answers in just 2 clicks in most cases 😛

It works some times, but it will not help you with obscure scans at all.

But it's not my job to help people source the evidence they use, and if they don't know where it's from they shouldn't be using it in the first place because they wouldn't be familiar with the context of the scene they reference. I source my evidence and I expect people to do the same.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Guys, just so you all know... None of this matters and no one wins or loses a comical debate over fictional characters.

Wrong

There is always a winner, the person who is more knowledgeable