Originally posted by Ambient
Well all that destructive potential is now moot. That spark of the big bang within the matrix is just apparently a doorway to antimatter universe.
Of coruse the expected culprits goes into damage-control mode and start listing off percieved technicalities to disassociate the feat from the statement. But it's just going through the motions at this point.
Originally posted by Astner
That settles that then.Of coruse the expected culprits goes into damage-control mode and start listing off percieved technicalities to disassociate the feat from the statement. But it's just going through the motions at this point.
I mean....if you wish to dismiss logic and canon scans, then that's fair enough. You take things on faith and belief, that's on you, not me.
As it stands, Firestorm is capable of destroying the universe, whilst Surfer is capable of destroying planets. What has happened on panel is irrelevant, really. We're talking about capabilities here.
You not making a clear argument isn't really our problem.
Originally posted by abhilegend
This is from Forever Evil, years after Brightest Day. Do tell us how it's moot, idiot.
“If we don’t unlock FireStorm now, he is going to detonate and take the whole Eastern seaboard with him.”
So that in correlation to this \/
“We didn’t destroy the Universe.” Contradicts everything…
Fact is we know that when the matrix become unstable it will detonate and supposedly creat Big Bang 2.0. We’ll it already detonated in brightest day and then we have the most latest statement in Forever Evil arc - No universe destroyed is really hurting all your claims, all this emphasis regarding universal level destruction is very much moot - the matrix detonating in Brightest day and it’s near detonation in Forever Evil contradicts everything supposed to happen when it becomes unstable.
Nice try but FS does not have the capability to destroy the Universe base on the on panel evidence provided above, unless you guys can prove that it has varying detonation level or can be partially unstable, you have nothing but illogical speculative claim.
I actually...I think you are right, Ambient, and I got caught up in arguing a point that I shouldn't have made. I should have stuck to my guns when arguing a different argument.
Fact is we know that when the matrix become unstable it will detonate and supposedly creat Big Bang 2.0. We’ll it already detonated in brightest day and then we have the most latest statement in Forever Evil arc - No universe destroyed is really hurting all your claims, all this emphasis regarding universal level destruction is very much moot - the matrix detonating in Brightest day and it’s near detonation in Forever Evil contradicts everything supposed to happen when it becomes unstable.
I should have just stayed on this argument:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the statement did not say that 10/10 times it will destroy the universe, did it?It said there was a 1/100,000 chance (I don't recall the precise statement, but you know of it as you called it out).
So.....no contradiction. He is capable of destroying the Universe. No one said he has it at his fingertips, or can summon that power at will, or that it will always happen.
My point, in case it was not clear, was that FS is capable of destroying the universe, when Astner mentioned Surfer was capable of destroying planets.
Which I think we both agree on.
When Firestorm detonates, it isn't a 10/10 surefire chance that the Universe is destroyed. Like a coin toss, where the probability isn't 10/10 that you get heads.
Is the coin CAPABLE of landing heads up? Yes. Just because I flipped it 5 times and it landed tails every time, does not mean the next toss is definitely tails.
The main argument here, is that FS is CAPABLE of destroying the universe. All prior examples of it not happening, are moot - because we are arguing capability here. A coin toss coming up tails does not impact the fact that the next time I toss it, it is still capable of coming up heads.
Originally posted by Astner
It was an honest mistake, it happens.How am I uppity when I'm the only one in the last two pages who've conceeded not only one, but two points?
Because rather than use the Steel Man methodology, you straight away jumped to the conclusion that I was using a shit argument:
Originally posted by Astner
Okay, so he can manipulate organic substances but he wasn't always able to and DarkSaint was just gaslighting me, okay.That's just the Matrix, the source of Firestorm's power, but it doesn't allow him to channel those levels of power.
It's a shit argument in the same vein of trying to argue that each of the Green Lantern are as powerful as the Lantern entities rather than just channeling a small fraction of their powers.
Instead of actually checking that you know how to scroll. That's what makes you uppity.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I actually...I think you are right, Ambient, and I got caught up in arguing a point that I shouldn't have made. I should have stuck to my guns when arguing a different argument.I should have just stayed on this argument:
Which I think we both agree on.
When Firestorm detonates, it isn't a 10/10 surefire chance that the Universe is destroyed. Like a coin toss, where the probability isn't 10/10 that you get heads.
Is the coin CAPABLE of landing heads up? Yes. Just because I flipped it 5 times and it landed tails every time, does not mean the next toss is definitely tails.
The main argument here, is that FS is CAPABLE of destroying the universe. All prior examples of it not happening, are moot - because we are arguing capability here. A coin toss coming up tails does not impact the fact that the next time I toss it, it is still capable of coming up heads.
🤔 Very clever Saint, you almost got me there
I get what you are saying, it’s just that I stand in opposition to FS spark matrix Big Bang attack - Contravening that claim by undermining the plausibility of its use. There you have it 😆 its out 😱… FS can toss that coin as many times he want's, it’ll always be at 0 odds - why?, because there is no proof of partial detonation, because it has been stated upon destabilization that it has only enough destructive force to take out a peninsula, because at full unstable state it didn’t annihilate the universe. The point is FS does not have the claims full capability because we have already seen all of the matrix potential destructive force and it is no where close as to what it’s supposed to be.
it xploded and it didn’t destroy
But there is always that agree to this agree counter 🙃
I get it but here’s the thing, I’m trying to undermine FS so called full capability - as in putting a false premises on that idea by showing you that we have seen the matrix full destructive force from when it went unstable and detonated in Brightest day arc and again in Forever Evil arc mention of its level of destructivity. Your in agreement of no proof of level of detonation is a result of that, I just need to somehow sway you on your presumptuous claim in that he still retain that capability 😆 . Why do u think he still has full capability for universal destruction when it’s already been shown that the matrix detonated and it didn’t destroy the Universe? Remember your in agreement that there is no different level of detonation therefore the idea of partial destabilization is none existence.
Originally posted by Ambient“If we don’t unlock FireStorm now, he is going to detonate and take the whole Eastern seaboard with him.”
So that in correlation to this \/
“We didn’t destroy the Universe.” Contradicts everything…
Fact is we know that when the matrix become unstable it will detonate and supposedly creat Big Bang 2.0. We’ll it already detonated in brightest day and then we have the most latest statement in Forever Evil arc - No universe destroyed is really hurting all your claims, all this emphasis regarding universal level destruction is very much moot - the matrix detonating in Brightest day and it’s near detonation in Forever Evil contradicts everything supposed to happen when it becomes unstable.
Nice try but FS does not have the capability to destroy the Universe base on the on panel evidence provided above, unless you guys can prove that it has varying detonation level or can be partially unstable, you have nothing but illogical speculative claim.
Originally posted by abhilegend
This is from Forever Evil, years after Brightest Day.
You're not referring to the series titled Forever Evil, you're referring to Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. which is a completely different series. This is an important distinction when there are six different Forever Evil runs, five of which feature a subtitle.
It's also a good idea to post the issue number so that people quickly can verify that your source is correct, and examine just the immediate context if they want to.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Do tell us how it's moot, idiot.
Firstly, this is of course an out-of-continuity run, or more specifically it doesn't take place at Prime Earth (or the Metaverse if you prefer).
Secondly in the exact same issue Firestorm has his body destroyed. Naturally, no big bang occured despite what seems to be a stressful situaiton.
- Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. #3
Thirdly and most importantly, one in the very next issue Dr. Stein confirms three things.[list=1][*]Different Firestorms have different levels of control of the Matrix.
[*]None of the Firestorms can actually open the Matrix and trigger a Big Bang.
[*]The hypothesis that you need a telepath to hijack Firestorm's mind to actually open the Matrix trigger the Big Bang.[/list=1]
- Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. #4
So either you took this scan out of context and made a mistake in your interpretation of it. Or you read the run and you purposely omitted this piece of information. I wish I could reject the latter option, but given my experience with you as a debater I can't.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because rather than use the Steel Man methodology, you straight away jumped to the conclusion that I was using a shit argument:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Instead of actually checking that you know how to scroll. That's what makes you uppity.
You harping on this point past its resolution does nothing but emphasize your pettiness. You're not interested in being right, for you it's about collecting irrelevant "ha, got you!" moments and keep brining them up to discredit your opponent.
Originally posted by Astner
First and foremost you need to learn how to properly reference source material.You're not referring to the series titled Forever Evil, you're referring to Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. which is a completely different series. This is an important distinction when there are six different Forever Evil runs, five of which feature a subtitle.
Its all Forever Evil event, go figure where that takes place.
It's also a good idea to post the issue number so that people quickly can verify that your source is correct, and examine just the immediate context if they want to.Okay.
Firstly, this is of course an out-of-continuity run, or more specifically it doesn't take place at Prime Earth (or the Metaverse if you prefer).
Whatchu talking about? Forever Evil has been referred multiple times in current stories, how is it non canon?
Secondly in the exact same issue Firestorm has his body destroyed. Naturally, no big bang occured despite what seems to be a stressful situaiton.- Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. #3
That's inside his mind, not that his body was actually destroyed.
Thirdly and most importantly, one in the very next issue Dr. Stein confirms three things.[list=1][*]Different Firestorms have different levels of control of the Matrix.
[*]None of the Firestorms can actually open the Matrix and trigger a Big Bang.
[*]The hypothesis that you need a telepath to hijack Firestorm's mind to actually open the Matrix trigger the Big Bang.[/list=1]- Forever Evil: A.R.G.U.S. #4
Its amazing how you can read and still can't comprehend something.
Mind you, this is Firestorm when he was already destabilised and was containing entire Justice league in its matrix.
So either you took this scan out of context and made a mistake in your interpretation of it. Or you read the run and you purposely omitted this piece of information. I wish I could reject the latter option, but given my experience with you as a debater I can't.
LOL, you're either just an idiot or can't comprehend shit.
Originally posted by Ambient
I get it but here’s the thing, I’m trying to undermine FS so called full capability - as in putting a false premises on that idea by showing you that we have seen the matrix full destructive force from when it went unstable and detonated in Brightest day arc and again in Forever Evil arc mention of its level of destructivity. Your in agreement of no proof of level of detonation is a result of that, I just need to somehow sway you on your presumptuous claim in that he still retain that capability 😆 . Why do u think he still has full capability for universal destruction when it’s already been shown that the matrix detonated and it didn’t destroy the Universe? Remember your in agreement that there is no different level of detonation therefore the idea of partial destabilization is none existence.
But I never argued this 'full capability ' or whatever. Reread Astner's original comment.
Originally posted by Astner
That's not what the Steel Man approach is. The Steel Man approach is to reinforce your opponents argument where it can be reinforced without it compromising the original intent to better address it and provide a more comprehensive response.Missing a scan (because I didn't expect more than one scan in the link you posted) is an honest mistake. Which is also why I conceded to it when I realized this was the case.
You harping on this point past its resolution does nothing but emphasize your pettiness. You're not interested in being right, for you it's about collecting irrelevant "ha, got you!" moments and keep brining them up to discredit your opponent.
Well, I'm not the one here making mistakes and saying you have shitty arguments, or accusing you of gaslighting me.
Originally posted by Astner
Okay.Firstly, this is of course an out-of-continuity run, or more specifically it doesn't take place at Prime Earth (or the Metaverse if you prefer).
Wut? I mean, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, so here is evidence that I think proved the story is definitely canon
1. Like Abih mentioned, this story is a Forever Evil tie-in
2. These story has multiple references of canon event
For example: Trinity War
3. Multiple other canon books also referred this story during the event, and it literally tells you this story continued in other canon books( Forever Evil, Justice League)
https://ibb.co/BP5jwLV
https://ibb.co/9yJvHhr
https://ibb.co/M72V8qZ
https://ibb.co/YtPqs71
https://ibb.co/r7M8436
https://ibb.co/M8fkJjS
4. Then we have multiple bios make references about this story( Cheetah battles with Travor, Travor retrives the Lasso of Truth from her Travor uses the Lasso of Truth to beat Dr.Lgiht, Killer Frost teams up with him)
https://ibb.co/rf2TF4K
https://ibb.co/t8tcH0b
https://ibb.co/7X8P1CL
https://ibb.co/T1Nb5C8
https://ibb.co/3hXWcN0
5. The story also directly referred Forever Evil: Rogues Rebellion, which I also can prove it's a canon book
