Galan007
|Quantum Observer|
Originally posted by ODG
^ Yes! That moment is super important. Without delving into secondary material, it seemed obvious to me that Palpatine was just goading Luke into killing him. But such a deathblow wasn't what would have ultimately turned Luke to the Dark Side. No, it was the inevitable clash with, and murder of, his own father that would have truly completed Luke's journey to the Dark Side. Again, acknowledging my own ignorance of secondary material, I think the movie portrayed Vader as having way more agency than that. Vader developed ulterior plans against Palpatine that involved bringing his own son towards the Dark Side because he thought that him and Luke together diving into that side of the Force would be powerful enough to challenge Palpatine.Think back to that moment in Luke/Vader's duel when Luke's feelings become unguarded and Vader realizes Leia is also a Skywalker. Vader goes for it and brings out Luke's unmitigated rage at 3:30:
Palpatine wanted Luke to descend towards the Dark Side to replace Vader as his apprentice. Vader wanted Luke to descend towards the Dark Side to join him and overthrow the Emperor. He said as much during his first duel in Empire Strikes Back. No reason to think Vader was lying. *groan*
It's difficult for me to have this kind of discussion
without mentioning secondary material, because it's all under the same umbrella canon -- the comics/novels, for example, are just as canon as the films.
That said, during ESB, Vader initially did want Luke to join him in hopes of overthrowing Palpatine... But Vader had a change of heart afterwards. Not only did he witness the true depths of Palpatine's power(and therefore knew that standing against him was pointless), but he also saw Luke's potential, and began viewing him as a threat/rival. He actually wanted Luke dead(this was even corroborated in one of the novels that was set during their RotJ encounter.)
Where Palpatine is concerned, he was just goading Luke into using his "aggressive feelings", thereby pushing him towards the dark side and becoming the new apprentice.
The first instance was seeing if Luke would actually try to strike him down in a fit of rage(which Luke did), but again: Palpatine never actually intended to die in that moment. He had complete faith in Vader's obedience... Heck, Vader made his obedience to Palpatine abundantly clear during the film itself, while he was speaking to Luke: "You don't know the power of the dark side... I MUST OBEY my Master."
The second instance was goading Luke into killing Vader(ie. his own father)... Which Luke very nearly did, until his final "breakthrough moment."
But when Palpatine realized that Luke could not be corrupted, he decided to kill him... And it was only then that Vader finally had his own breakthrough moment -- properly turning against his Master, in order to save his son.
Originally posted by ODG
Sounds about as unnecessary a "retcon" as the entirety of the Solo film.
I wish that were the worst of it. 🙁