Cosmic King Thor vs Darkseid

Originally posted by cdtm
Made him bleed, but could he defeat BW without the exploit?

Originally posted by cdtm
And is true Darkseid comparable to Black Winter? Or is he weaker?

And while during Final Crisis, ALE Darkseid crushed a single universe into a singularity, I don't think you can apply ALE amps to True Form Darkseid. ALE is a distinctly separate concept from Darkseid. Even a multiversal conglomeration of all Darkseids throughout the DC Multiverse. And True Form Darkseid was never hinted as possessing the ALE. Last we saw of him was being enslaved by Pariah and being weakened to the point of dogpiling Superboy during Dark Crisis together with other enslaved marquis DC supervillains in a fist-fight.

But probably a discussion better left to a specifically dedicated thread. Unsure if this thread even contemplates a True Form Darkseid.

What are Black Winter's feats of durability? There are plenty of characters who are more offensive than they are defensive (durable). So equating offensive power to durability is faulty?

Now we can give BW the benefit of the doubt and give him AVERAGE Galactus withstanding level durability (without using feats) since its implied he would be to take attacks from Galactus without being outright defeated.

Originally posted by ODG
Surely not, IMHO. If Cosmic Thor could, there would be no point to stealing an amped Galactus' power. I mean, yes, Cosmic Thor definitely wanted to avenge those five consumed worlds by killing amped Galactus but the natural plot escalation implied that Cosmic Thor could never defeat the Black Winter without utilizing amped Galactus' energies. My initial impression is: not comparable. Black Winter's best feat is consuming a universe? True Form Darkseid's best feat is ambushing the Quintessence & Spectre from behind unawares? Kinda think the Black Winter could do that. I kinda think an amped Galactus could do that. I might even wonder if an unamped Galactus might be able to accomplish that.

And while during Final Crisis, ALE Darkseid crushed a single universe into a singularity, I don't think you can apply ALE amps to True Form Darkseid. ALE is a distinctly separate concept from Darkseid. Even a multiversal conglomeration of all Darkseids throughout the DC Multiverse. And True Form Darkseid was never hinted as possessing the ALE. Last we saw of him was being enslaved by Pariah and being weakened to the point of dogpiling Superboy during Dark Crisis together with other enslaved marquis DC supervillains in a fist-fight.

But probably a discussion better left to a specifically dedicated thread. Unsure if this thread even contemplates a True Form Darkseid.

Originally posted by h1a8
What are Black Winter's feats of durability? There are plenty of characters who are more offensive than they are defensive (durable). So equating offensive power to durability is faulty?

Now I don't recall my opinion relying on equating offense w/ defense, but whatever. Straight durability feats? Black Winter was overwhelming amped Galactus and Cosmic Thor in a straight fight so Black Winter was clearly tanking their attacks. Black Winter straight-up withstood Cosmic Thor's godblast.

Black Winter, however, did not survive the Galactus Superbomb.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now we can give BW the benefit of the doubt and give him AVERAGE Galactus withstanding level durability (without using feats) since its implied he would be to take attacks from Galactus without being outright defeated.

I fail to see how an average Galactus has any relevance to measuring Black Winter's durability. I trust you also recognize this and have no intentions of dragging the Black Winter down to an average Galactus' level.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Darkseid consumes a universe and stalements AM in N52, no?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also, didn't Darkseid already crush timelines due to he was too powerful(even when he was very young/barely just became Darkseid)before Final Crisis?

Originally posted by ODG
To be polite, this strikes me as a very "liberal" interpretation of the scope of Darkseid's power and the Mobius Anti-Monitor incarnation at the start of N52. But maybe I'm too drunk. So I invite you to both [b](i) cite the feat(s)you're alluding to and, thereafter, (ii) elaborate on the implied repercussions of said feat(s). See above. What feat are you referring to and please elaborate. [/B]

Originally posted by Galan007
DCnU Darkseid is a bonafide universal+ power...

1.) It was stated that Darkseid can, and has, destroyed/consumed universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/XAEis9O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/d9hvill.jpg

2.) DCnU Anti-Monitor was absorbing "all the power" of entire universeS prior to confronting Darkseid:
http://i.imgur.com/OqwB1Bu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tbLToDY.jpg

3.) Despite AM having absorbed the energy of multiple universeS before fighting Darkseid, they were still roughly equal when they battled. It was only AM's possession/mastery of the ALE(which Darkseid was unaware of, mind you) that finally gave him the edge -- and that was because he used it to take control of the Black Racer/Death, and turn it against Darkseid:
http://i.imgur.com/G1Spd3Y.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1QQosdG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e9GhixX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y76clye.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zk8Ejkb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vCsifNk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fK1X4C7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aMzNxhF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RHoeAZn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qOK1j2N.jpg

4.) In the wake of Darkseid's 'death', the Parademons attacked Oa and merged his Mother Box with the Central Battery. They needed someone/thing to rule them, and the CB's "infinite" energy was the closest match to Darkseid's power that his Mother Box, with its Source-gleaned "omni-knowledge"(aka. omniscience), could locate:
http://i.imgur.com/jKN2MU7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9vMoodQ.jpg

IOW, he's extremely powerful.

As for Darkseid's absence erasing timelines(due to he's too powerful)

Originally posted by Galan007

g007_teehee

*But seriously, Team 1 wins. 👆

^ Well, I suppose we can take the time to address the parts of this in turn. So let's begin with the N52 storyline: Darkseid War.

So first thing's first, when's the last time you read Darkseid War? Like the entire story and not just individual scans of panels, much less whole pages?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for Darkseid's absence erasing timelines(due to he's too powerful)

https://ibb.co/kD0vbKN

Otherwise, 616 Galactus = multiversal power since his absence lead to the Marvel Multiverse collapsing during the Abraxas storyline.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Well, I suppose we can take the time to address the parts of this in turn. So let's begin with the N52 storyline: Darkseid War.

So first thing's first, when's the last time you read Darkseid War? Like the entire story and not just individual scans of panels, much less whole pages?

Originally posted by ODG
Also, this portion of your post doesn't even merit a response. Catastrophic consequences of a character's absence are, in no way, a pound-for-pound indication of their actual power.

Otherwise, 616 Galactus = multiversal power since his absence lead to the Marvel Multiverse collapsing during the Abraxas storyline.

Edit:
Also, I like to see where do the comics of FC explicitly state that Darkseid dragging the Multiverse was due to he was amped by ALE

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I think we should both not waste our time and go straight to the point. What are you trying to say here?

ODG: "I invite you to support that claim with evidence and elaborate your position."

qwertyuiop1998: *quotes someone else*

ODG: "Did you read the source material yourself to even constructively expand on what you think they represent and what those scenes mean?"

qwertyuiop1998: "NO! What do YOU think they mean???? YOU elaborate on what I re-posted!"

ODG: ". . . . ."

You can stand behind your own posts (or re-posts of someone else's posts as it were). But this ain't my first rodeo here on KMC, pal.

And not even my first rodeo with you.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So did Darkseid destroy a universe or not due to his presence/absence?

Edit:
Also, I like to see where do the comics of FC explicitly state that Darkseid dragging the Multiverse was due to he was amped by ALE

Otherwise, the only constructive result to be had at this point is deconstructing the obvious ploy to avoid actual debate. Not my fault. Your's.

Originally posted by ODG
[b]qwertyuiop1998: *makes claim*

ODG: "I invite you to support that claim with evidence and elaborate your position."

qwertyuiop1998: *quotes someone else*

ODG: "Did you read the source material yourself to even constructively expand on what you think they represent and what those scenes mean?"

qwertyuiop1998: "NO! What do YOU think they mean???? YOU elaborate on what I re-posted!"

ODG: ". . . . ."

You can stand behind your own posts (or re-posts of someone else's posts as it were). But this ain't my first rodeo here on KMC, pal.

And not even my first rodeo with you. [/B]

Originally posted by ODG
Your clumsy attempt to shift the burden of proof onto me and have me disprove a negative is obvious and tired. If you want to actually stand behind your posts (or re-posts of someone else???), let me know.

Otherwise, the only constructive result to be had at this point is deconstructing the obvious ploy to avoid actual debate. Not my fault. Your's.

But again, it seems this discussion is prone to plummet to another meaningless "call other's name" discussion, as you seem to just attack me instead of elaborate your point

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
ODG: Did you read that? Because I feel I know more about them than you
Me: *neither say yes or no, but just doesn't get the patient wasting hours to try to get to the point we're discussing*. Just give me your argument and we can try some meaningful discussion without wasting our time

You pulled a classic Tricksterpriest and basically reposted a respect thread and refuse to elaborate.

Now I understand that KMC reference may go over your head but that's a KMC classic ploy to avoid having to actually argue your own claim. Make a claim, dump someone else's scans and posts, sit on your hands, and disingenuously act like you're in some position to demand I disprove your claims someone else's posts.

I'm not arguing with Galan007. Don't try and and act like you're in his shoes, pal. Quite frankly, whatever disagreements I've had with him? You'd need to stand on a high chair to kiss his a$$.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But again, it seems this discussion is prone to plummet to another meaningless "call other's name" discussion, as you seem to just attack me instead of elaborate your point

Originally posted by ODG
You do understand you made the claims to which I asked you to provide evidence and elaborate? Don't try to add rewriting history to your list of fallacious ploys.

You pulled a classic Tricksterpriest and basically reposted a respect thread and refuse to elaborate.

Now I understand that KMC reference may go over your head but that's a KMC classic ploy to avoid having to actually argue your own claim. Make a claim, dump someone else's scans and posts, sit on your hands, and disingenuously act like you're in some position to demand I disprove your claims someone else's posts.

I'm not arguing with Galan007. Don't try and and act like you're in his shoes, pal. Quite frankly, whatever disagreements I've had with him? You'd need to stand on a high chair to kiss his a$$.

How I quote a post that contain the scans I refer to has anything to do shift burden of proof/doesn't prove what I said?
And how does I quote a post that contains scans equal to I'm letting you debate with said poster?

Again, you're projecting your delusions here

Originally posted by ODG
Annnnddddd.... this is where you blame me for your own refusal to elaborate your own claims. KMC tactic #105. Classic.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So do the scans prove what I said or not?

No, a young Darkseid didn't "crush a timeline". A future version pulled a young Darkseid from the timestream proper that temporally disrupted continuity resulting in catastrophe via the classic fiction trope of the butterfly effect. F@cking Legion killed a young Xavier which resulted in an M'Kraan crystallization wave that destroyed the 616 universe and led to the Age of Apocalypse.

Did young Xavier "crush a timeline"? No, because it was Legion's actions upon him that created the catastrophic butterfly effect. Yet, you stupidly tried to sell that notion with young Darkseid even though it was old Darkseid pulling him from a timeline. Young Xavier was utterly passive. Young Darkseid didn't do sh1t either. They were both passive in the events that led to their respective universes being destroyed by the butterfly effect, you unmitigated moron.

Yet, despite the abject stupidity of such a notion.... Despite you knowing you could not elaborate, much less stand behind such a notion... You're acting like it's my fault that it's taken until now for me to disprove your claim?

Because, somehow... the burden of proof was switched onto me? That's not how constructive and honest discussion works. And you know this. So next time, shut up and leave actual discussion to your betters like Galan007 instead of reposting/twisting his posts, pretending to stand in his shoes to suit your misguidedly myopic propaganda.

Damn!!!

Originally posted by ODG
No, you schmuck. But your continuing arrogance is grating. So as an olive branch, I'll disprove a negative and deconstruct your initial post. N52 Darkseid did not stalemate N52 Mobius Anti-Monitor. N52 Darkseid was one-shot by his release of the Black Racer. So I ask again, did you even read Darkseid War?

Quite frankingly, I can say I indeed read the comics, and the impression I got is pretty similar to Galan's(and many others)

Originally posted by ODG

No, a young Darkseid didn't "crush a timeline". A future version pulled a young Darkseid from the timestream proper that temporally disrupted continuity resulting in catastrophe via the classic fiction trope of the butterfly effect. F@cking Legion killed a young Xavier which resulted in an M'Kraan crystallization wave that destroyed the 616 universe and led to the Age of Apocalypse.

And I don't think you ever answered another question I posted to you:

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Also, I like to see where do the comics of FC explicitly state that Darkseid dragging the Multiverse was due to he was amped by ALE

Originally posted by ODG
I anticipate that I will regret unignoring you. But curiousity + many beers + a seemingly sincere post from you may deserve a response.

Now I don't recall my opinion relying on equating offense w/ defense, but whatever. Straight durability feats? Black Winter was overwhelming amped Galactus and Cosmic Thor in a straight fight so Black Winter was clearly tanking their attacks. Black Winter straight-up withstood Cosmic Thor's godblast.

Black Winter, however, did not survive the Galactus Superbomb. Amped Galactus w/ Cosmic Thor's help was getting overwhelmed by Black Winter in a straight-up fight. So he was clearly taking attacks from an amped Galactus who had assistance and not being defeated. Indeed, Black Winter appeared to be outright winning but for Cosmic Thor's Galactus Superbomb gambit.

I fail to see how an average Galactus has any relevance to measuring Black Winter's durability. I trust you also recognize this and have no intentions of dragging the Black Winter down to an average Galactus' level.

Thank you for that response. The question was genuine as I didn't read the entire arc and missed the fight with amped Galactus with Thor fighting him.
Only saw scans of Thor using Galactus as a bomb (which came after the initial fight as you explained).

The reason why I said average Galactus because I assumed that was the only version (basically a non amped version) that fought BW off panel before the arc began. Which is the reason Galactus was running from him.

So disregard what I said since I didn't know about the fight you just mentioned.

So basically it took Galans total energy at once to kill BW. While small portions at a time (in blasts) did almost nothing to BW.
Is this correct?