I think the speed of thought is something varies from context to context.
In some cases, it only seems to mean really fast(Wolverine, Daredevil etc).
In some cases it means the characters' personal reaction speed.
And in some cases, it means TP powers' speed, hence sometimes speedsters can avoid being read mind by going really fast etc
It basically means whatever you want it to be, which makes it meaningless as a speed measurement.
Ultimates, the comic that people all go gaga over as an example of Thought> Light, ends with....Monica beating the poop out of that villain.
Even Iron Man, in his Mark 1 armour, has moved at the speed of thought:
Even talks about microseconds etc. If this were Surfer or Hulk or Thor, this scan would be spammed as proof of their superspeed for decades.
Speed of thought can be multiversal or it can be street level. In this scenario, I group all powers that are thought activated (TP/TK/and yes, Invisible Woman's powers) as being at the speed of thought. They think it, it happens.
i couldn't agree more--of course it means many different things. it's been a purple prose term for 70 years. which is why the term itself is effectively meaningless. but feats? sending thoughts into planck time, casting thoughts across the universe instantly (and many other examples)--those types of examples are very definitive and have been repeated several times. it's those feats (not narrative lip-service) that set high level tp users apart from non tp users. /shrug
Then that's an issue of range, not speed. If our plucky combatants are a universe/galaxy apart, then that might be an issue. But over 500m? They're all moving at the speed of thought, and everyone here has the feats to suggest no one is out speeding anyone, assuming their powers are all applied 'at a thought'.
Originally posted by leonidasI've made similar arguments before and I'm partial to them because it's a clever forum application of these feats... but I don't think we would ever seriously argue that Xavier thought-blitzes Spectrum, would we?
i couldn't agree more--of course it means many different things. it's been a purple prose term for 70 years. which is why the term itself is effectively meaningless. but feats? sending thoughts into planck time, casting thoughts across the universe instantly (and many other examples)--those types of examples are very definitive and have been repeated several times. it's those feats (not narrative lip-service) that set high level tp users apart from non tp users. /shrug
I wish writers would never talk about the speed of thought. It means so many different things and always ends up sounding so stupid. Eg, Flash (in DS's scan last page) is talking about the speed at which neurons can transmit impulses, which is an entirely different thing than the speed at which Xavier casts a "thought" through space. One is physics and the other is metaphysics.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then that's an issue of range, not speed. If our plucky combatants are a universe/galaxy apart, then that might be an issue. But over 500m? They're all moving at the speed of thought, and everyone here has the feats to suggest no one is out speeding anyone, assuming their powers are all applied 'at a thought'.
it's a matter of one having PROOF (quantifiable in many cases) their thoughts can travel at impossible speeds, vs one NOT having proof of the same. and yes i'd say Xavier could easily shut sue down in a QuickDraw scenario 10/10 times. the term "speed of thought" is meaningless in most cases. literally. because it's been defined in the "physical/biological" sense, "metaphysically" as some ill-defined infinite type speed and as purely purple prose. the term itself is without meaning. so it's feats that should decide thought speed of specific individuals. people like Xavier and sage--they have feats that show the literal speed of their thoughts. Nate and Jonn have the same. i'd say sue operates at the speed of thought of any human. tp's operate at a higher level than that. as shown by repeated feats. :/
Originally posted by Smurph
I've made similar arguments before and I'm partial to them because it's a clever forum application of these feats... but I don't think we would ever seriously argue that Xavier thought-blitzes Spectrum, would we?
well, I guess that would be what we'd call a QuickDraw scenario in the forum. and yes, i'd say Xavier would shut spectrum down in a QuickDraw scenario like he'd shut down sue. is that a thought blitz? beats me lol
I wish writers would never talk about the speed of thought. It means so many different things and always ends up sounding so stupid. Eg, Flash (in DS's scan last page) is talking about the speed at which neurons can transmit impulses, which is an entirely different thing than the speed at which Xavier casts a "thought" through space. One is physics and the other is metaphysics. [/B]
lol of course. purple prose. the term is meaningless. but it's not meaningless that tp users can and have performed many many feats that literally demonstrate the speed at which there thoughts can move and process information. again it comes down to simple support imo--tp users have feats to suggest they can think way faster than non tp users. at least in general imo.
Originally posted by leonidasI guess my point -and it might be splitting hairs- is that sending thoughts across the universe doesn't prove that a tp user thinks faster. So in that specific respect, I think your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. It seems to me that the speed at which a "thought" (in the sense of a metaphysical signal, like an astral form) moves through space could be entirely unrelated to the speed at which an impulse travels across neurons. I don't see any reason to believe that those speeds are the same?
again it comes down to simple support imo--tp users have feats to suggest they can think way faster than non tp users.
If they're both on Earth, will Xavier's powers reach Lilandra before Sue could shield her? Sure. Beyond the fact that Sue's powers don't extend that far, Xavier has proof for how fast he can contact Shi'Ar space from Earth.
Doesn't that prove that Xavier thinks faster than Sue? I don't see why.
But as I say it might be me pedantically splitting hairs because then you have feats like God Cable fighting Surfer with the two of them racing around the earth, destroying and instantly recreating their surroundings at an atomic level. And it's not like Cable got a separate speed boost - his TP and TK were at their highest, which translated into a speed boost.
So... maybe I agree with you at the end of the day anyways.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's a matter of one having PROOF (quantifiable in many cases) their thoughts can travel at impossible speeds, vs one NOT having proof of the same. and yes i'd say Xavier could easily shut sue down in a QuickDraw scenario 10/10 times. the term "speed of thought" is meaningless in most cases. literally. because it's been defined in the "physical/biological" sense, "metaphysically" as some ill-defined infinite type speed and as purely purple prose. the term itself is without meaning. so it's feats that should decide thought speed of specific individuals. people like Xavier and sage--they have feats that show the literal speed of their thoughts. Nate and Jonn have the same. i'd say sue operates at the speed of thought of any human. tp's operate at a higher level than that. as shown by repeated feats. :/
Then that is less 'speed of thought', and more 'character A has better reaction feats than character B'. It's not the fact that they are TP users, they just have better reaction feats.
Like, say if we put any decent street up (say, Daredevil, or Punisher) and gave them a GL ring, and gave a high-end TP user (say, Professor X) a GL ring, and assume all things are equal (so ignoring cynical wills etc) - I don't think Prof X would make a GL construct faster than Punisher or Daredevil can.
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah I don't know about that. that requires a physical manifestation of thought. like I said--thought speeds are and have always been depicted differently for tp users. i'd favor them in most QuickDraw scenarios. /shrug
The speed of the constructs manifesting would be exactly the same across the two GL rings, hence my use of them.
So all things being equal, the only difference would be a TP user's thought speed and Daredevil's.
So would Daredevil be slower than X? The match starts, the two characters register the starting of said match, they think 'form construct' (in this scenario both contestants have to make the same thing), the rings both make said construct at the same speed - who is faster?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The speed of the constructs manifesting would be exactly the same across the two GL rings, hence my use of them.So all things being equal, the only difference would be a TP user's thought speed and Daredevil's.
So would Daredevil be slower than X? The match starts, the two characters register the starting of said match, they think 'form construct' (in this scenario both contestants have to make the same thing), the rings both make said construct at the same speed - who is faster?
i'd say the tp user would have the advantage but my opinion on it doesn't really matter since it's a meaningless, unproveable thought experiment--no pun intended....
again--one has many examples of proof regarding a higher order speed of thought, (not just thoughts traveling across the universe but downloading and processing vast amounts of information as well) one has...no proof. at all. it's as easy as that for me. saying otherwise is pure speculation and really not worth arguing over imo. at the very least the disparity in evidence is far more than enough for me to give a tp user a quickdraw over a non tp user.
So in your two paragraphs, you simultaneously say it's unprovable, whilst saying it's easily provable???
I just find it impossible that you would have a TP user just given carte blanche to be faster, just because they have a different powerset. Do their synapses fire at different speeds? You say Professor X can blitz Spectrum - can Emma? Jean? Psylocke? Where does this end?
Mister X?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in your two paragraphs, you simultaneously say it's unprovable, whilst saying it's easily provable???
lol really? *shakes heads* i'm saying ONE thing is unproveable--ie your made up thought experiment where you put a gl ring on prof x--and that the OTHER/DIFFERENT/SECOND thing--ie tp users have vastly superior thought speed to non tp users--is easily provable.
I just find it impossible that you would have a TP user just given carte blanche to be faster, just because they have a different powerset. Do their synapses fire at different speeds? You say Professor X can blitz Spectrum - can Emma? Jean? Psylocke? Where does this end?Mister X? [/B]
yes to all 3 but blitz is your word, not mine. i'd say they'd win a quickdraw. now you'll do the ds thing and nit-pick at the language lol but i can't be more clear despite your attempts to muddle and complicate things. x? dunno. he's a low level tp himself with a unique ability so not sure.
really not sure why this is hard to grasp. it's my opinion a high end tp user would win a QUICKDRAW scenario against almost anyone. why? because of an abundance of proof that supports their high end thought speed and processing speed. flash wins a quickdraw cuz he runs fast (ie has a different, better-suited-to-quickdraw power set from hulk.) xavier wins a quickdraw cuz the speed of his thoughts is fast (ie has a different, better-suited-for-quickdraw power set from spiderman.) no idea why that's such a baffling opinion to grasp. agree or don't. it's all good with me. 👆
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998I'm sure it's been said but sometimes it even means speed of thought > speed of light:
I think the speed of thought is something varies from context to context.
In some cases, it only seems to mean really fast(Wolverine, Daredevil etc).
In some cases it means the characters' personal reaction speed.
And in some cases, it means TP powers' speed, hence sometimes speedsters can avoid being read mind by going really fast etc
Originally posted by leonidas
lol really? *shakes heads* i'm saying ONE thing is unproveable--ie your made up thought experiment where you put a gl ring on prof x--and that the OTHER/DIFFERENT/SECOND thing--ie tp users have vastly superior thought speed to non tp users--is easily provable.yes to all 3 but blitz is your word, not mine. i'd say they'd win a quickdraw. now you'll do the ds thing and nit-pick at the language lol but i can't be more clear despite your attempts to muddle and complicate things. x? dunno. he's a low level tp himself with a unique ability so not sure.
really not sure why this is hard to grasp. it's my opinion a high end tp user would win a QUICKDRAW scenario against almost anyone. why? because of an abundance of proof that supports their high end thought speed and processing speed. flash wins a quickdraw cuz he runs fast (ie has a different, better-suited-to-quickdraw power set from hulk.) xavier wins a quickdraw cuz the speed of his thoughts is fast (ie has a different, better-suited-for-quickdraw power set from spiderman.) no idea why that's such a baffling opinion to grasp. agree or don't. it's all good with me. 👆
Originally posted by darthgooberI'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.
I get what you mean about TP users seeming to almost universally have faster brain speeds in general. Doesn't really stand out because Marvel doesn't have all that many speedsters and DC gives outright super speed to damn near everyone of note, but issue to issue TP users do have faster brains than most folks. I wouldn't automatically give a high level tp users a quick draw edge over a lightspeeder(falls to writer interpretation on that one), but I tend to give them an edge over most sub-light guys. And it seems logical on a very basic level. Your brain is a muscle and if your whole schtick is thinking really hard to get stuff done, you're going to train the efficiency of that muscle a lot more than most.
I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.
I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".