Mary Sue tier clash: Jean Grey and Invisble Woman vs Scarlet Witch and Storm

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.

I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.

I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".

And in regards to feat sharing between TP users, while I don't support the transfer of specific high end feats, I don't mind vague "ghost points" being given for use when there's nothing to suggest being an exception to a general trend. I don't mind crediting a random Kryptonian with the ability to dodge a lightning bolt cause that's the kind of thing Kryptonian's can do without raising an eyebrow. And I don't mind the idea of crediting random strongman types with some degree of invulnerability for the same reason even though characters like Sunspot exist.

Criticizing speed-reaction feat sharing amongst telepaths/telekinetics seems fair.

So would criticizing speed-reaction sharing amongst superspeedsters also be fair?

If people cannot agree on that, are they in agreement that Gorilla Grodd/Terry Jessup can outreact superspeedsters like Wally West or Monica Rambeau?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I can agree up to a point about how the same might apply to other power sets, and actually agree with the notion in regards to people like GL and IW. But for me the thing that sets TP users ahead of most characters like that, are numerously instances of high level tp users having specific note of having one of the worlds most powerful brains/minds/etc. By the same token, if I hear that someone has one of the worlds most powerful leg muscles, I generally figure there's at least some level of increased leg speed.

In Dark's GL ring scenario, assuming a basic level of ring competency for both parties, who do you think makes a construct faster - the world's smartest man, or a Formula 1 driver?

Originally posted by darthgoober
And in regards to feat sharing between TP users, while I don't support the transfer of specific high end feats, I don't mind vague "ghost points" being given for use when there's nothing to suggest being an exception to a general trend. I don't mind crediting a random Kryptonian with the ability to dodge a lightning bolt cause that's the kind of thing Kryptonian's can do without raising an eyebrow. And I don't mind the idea of crediting random strongman types with some degree of invulnerability for the same reason even though characters like Sunspot exist.

Unless it's such a standard and basic assumption that telepaths win quickdraws. Maybe there are a ton of examples that I'm not thinking of.

Originally posted by Smurph
None of this sounds unreasonable, but I think there's still a disconnect between the general assumption you could drawn about a big brain, and winning a quick draw.

In Dark's GL ring scenario, assuming a basic level of ring competency for both parties, who do you think makes a construct faster - the world's smartest man, or a Formula 1 driver?

Originally posted by Smurph
Sure. I just don't think we're in a realm comparable to either a Kryptonian dodging lightning or a strongman being tough.

Unless it's such a standard and basic assumption that telepaths win quickdraws. Maybe there are a ton of examples that I'm not thinking of.

How much of these feats, especially for the non-Wanda characters, are actual power upgrades over the years vs incremental power creep?

Back in the 90s, Jean (who was holding back) faced off vs a bloodlusted Sue and it was a draw.

Notice :
1) Sue initiated the attack on Jean and Jean beat back Sue's power
2) Jean during this time, didn't have any TP only TK
3) Sue's energy projection and constructs are invisible, yet Jean 'saw' the attack and reacted in time to defend against it

Ahab had turned Scott and Sue into hounds to hunt down Rachel and Adult Franklin. It was stated on panel that they were in every way equal to their former selves except that now they were 100% loyal to Ahab.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I think the Formula 1 driver might make the decision to create a construct first, but without knowing anything else about them I figure the world's smartest man would probably be faster in regards to processing the high definition, focused mental image one needs to bring the construct to life.

It's probably not a standard assumption, it's just what I personally infer when I view the situation as a whole. To me, most psychics of the tp/tk variety seem to have super powerful brains, brains are organic computers, when one talks about one computer being more powerful than another they're generally talking about it processing data faster even though with tp I'm sure force of personality is what they're primarily talking about. I see that TP/TK makes an ape a threat to the premier speedster in comics and their interactions include quotes about the speed of thought being faster than the speed of light combined with any number of TP users bringing down speedsters when they're in a group plus TK users screwing with high speed projectiles in flight, and even the clairvoyant characters that are physically human but still manage to dodge people with super speed, and I detect something of a trend even though there are plenty of exceptions.

Hence my new thread - where Emma projects an image with all of its complexity and definition (if it helps, imagine she's just projecting a simple shape like a square or a circle) into the driver/intelligent man (in comic terms, Wolverine/X/Hulk/Quicksilver)'s minds.

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.

I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.

I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".

you're point about feat sharing is fair, which is why i've said repeatedly--high end tp users. most if not all the significant tp users in dc and marvel have demonstrations of both high end thought speed and high end thought processing abilities that most non-tp users simply don't have. certain guys like flash and superman have been shown to be able to significantly alter their thought and processing speeds though so they'd certainly be able to win in a quickdraw. but if we're looking at a quickdraw with just thought-based powers i'd take the tp almost every time. like i said, burden of proof lies with them--heavily. thoughts are also their whole schtick :/