Juggernaut (Deadpool II) vs Abomination (MCU)

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't notice any inconsistencies in The Incredible Hulk until Robtard pointed out the kicking feat. After that, I accepted the feat (Abomination's highest outlier) as his strength level for forum debates.

It looks like a dust trail to me, although the boulder does seem to get brighter at the end. Still, it looks like it just traveled far away. Many on other sites are claiming it went into outer space. I disagree with that.

You also disagreed that the boulder ignited, and that the sound is just due to a sonic boom.

Whilst the two aren't exclusive, it definitely flashed brighter, as my screenshot shot amply displays:

Dust trails don't flash brightly.

Originally posted by Psychotron
No, I don't. You're just speculating. It's never been said or implied that the space ships in GotG travel through anything but propulsion.

I don't need to look at websites, h1. My eyes work and I can look at the scene for myself. It exploded. Now, if you want to pretend that didn't happen and the boulder went into space, then that still puts Smart Hulk into the multi-thousand ton range which is more than suffient to replicate the bridge feat.

Are you taking the piss ? Meteors explode in the atmosphere due to the high speed and friction all the time. Don't tell me you didn't know that.

Thor has fought Hulk twice and was presented as a physical peer to Hulk both times until Hulk's rage built up enough for Hulk to overpower Thor. He's stopped a punch from Hulk with one arm, so you're wrong. That is a typical showing for him. That + his Nidavellir feats put him far above Juggernaut.

Without solid evidence of how much thrust the Rocket can exert, there's no real Nidavellir feat for Thor. Like I said, we don't know how much additional force was needed to move the already turning rings and break the ice.

Meanwhile, DS, myself, and others from different sites are claiming otherwise. Most people are saying it went into space, while you're the only one suggesting it exploded, which clearly isn't shown. Do you even know what an exploding meteor looks like?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You also disagreed that the boulder ignited, and that the sound is just due to a sonic boom.

Whilst the two aren't exclusive, it definitely flashed brighter, as my screenshot shot amply displays:

Dust trails don't flash brightly.

Get brighter =/= ignite in all cases.
I agree that it got brighter though.

Originally posted by Robtard
Saying Norton's Hulk (which is the same MCU Hulk) is weak, is a silly and sissyboy's argument. eg Jumping from Brazil to Guatemala overnight is an extremely high feat of strength, as the Hulk would have had to clears many, many miles of distance per leap. There's more feats.

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to even the most southern border of Guatemala is 4,100+ miles.

The force Abomination generated with his kick is the same as the force needed to jump a great distance, so there's no inconsistency there.

The kicking feat you pointed out shows that Abomination isn't weak.

Originally posted by h1a8
Get brighter =/= ignite in all cases.
I agree that it got brighter though.

Cool. Please give probable (not just possible) alternative explanations, with proof.

Remember, your original alternative was:

Originally posted by h1a8
So, you agree that the ring feat is unquantifiable because we don't know the force the ship can exert, correct?

Traveling FTL alone doesn't mean much unless we understand the mechanics behind it—whether it's through propulsion, warping space, hyperdimensional travel, etc.

Now, prove that the boulder exploded. I can show you several websites (with some of them attempt to calculate the feat) where people believe it created a sonic boom and then went into space. From my perspective, it seemed to leave a dust trail while traveling a great distance.

Why would the average person even believe a large boulder would explode when thrown, rather than simply going into orbit? We've seen countless examples of fictional characters throwing objects like trees or baseballs into space without them exploding first.

Even if you're right, those aren't average typical showings, so you can't scale other characters based on them.

That leaves you back at square one - Thor doesn't have any feats that make it believable he could replicate that exact accomplishment.

So please explain how a dust trail can get brighter.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool. Please give probable (not just possible) alternative explanations, with proof.

Remember, your original alternative was:

So please explain how a dust trail can get brighter.

I wasn't saying the dust trail got brighter - I was referring to the boulder.

Can I give an example of something getting brighter without igniting?

Are we just arguing semantics here? I took "ignite" to mean catching fire like a fireball. If getting hot enough to glow qualifies as igniting, then I stand corrected.

Originally posted by h1a8
Without solid evidence of how much thrust the Rocket can exert, there's no real Nidavellir feat for Thor. Like I said, we don't know how much additional force was needed to move the already turning rings and break the ice.

Meanwhile, DS, myself, and others from different sites are claiming otherwise. Most people are saying it went into space, while you're the only one suggesting it exploded, which clearly isn't shown. Do you even know what an exploding meteor looks like?

Rocket's ship could exert enough thrust to go FTL. That's the bottom line unless you've got proof that Rocket's ship travels through alternative means.

The rings were not turning. The forge had been shut down for a long period of time. Thor had to overcome the static friction and the built up ice.

First of all, DS clearly doesn't agree with you. Second, I don't care what "people on other websites" claim, h1. My eyes and my brain still work. Try using yours. Also, even if it went into space, that still suits my argument. The force required to toss a boulder into space is more than the force required to punch a whole in a bridge.

Originally posted by h1a8
I wasn't saying the dust trail got brighter - I was referring to the boulder.

Can I give an example of something getting brighter without igniting?

Are we just arguing semantics here? I took "ignite" to mean catching fire like a fireball. If getting hot enough to glow qualifies as igniting, then I stand corrected.

It also expands:

Getting brighter and suddenly expanding over a very short period of time = exploding.

For sandstone (lowballing here) approximately the size of a car, ovoid in shape, to undergo sufficient air friction to glow at high altitudes, you need to be travelling at around 7-8km per second, and that's just to begin glowing red-hot (the boulder is clearly white hot, but let's lowball).

That takes about 270 billion joules of energy, or 27million tons of force in a very short amount of time.

Insane, especially as this Hulk doesn't seem that mad - competitive, yes, but not tooth-gnashingly angry.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Rocket's ship could exert enough thrust to go FTL. That's the bottom line unless you've got proof that Rocket's ship travels through alternative means.

The rings were not turning. The forge had been shut down for a long period of time. Thor had to overcome the static friction and the built up ice.

First of all, DS clearly doesn't agree with you. Second, I don't care what "people on other websites" claim, h1. My eyes and my brain still work. Try using yours. Also, even if it went into space, that still suits my argument. The force required to toss a boulder into space is more than the force required to punch a whole in a bridge.

Prove that Rocket's ship can generate enough thrust to travel faster than light, because it's only been shown to achieve FTL travel using wormholes and the Universal Neural Teleportation Network.

The rings were already exerting force on the ice while trying to turn, but the ice had them stuck. Thor only needed an unknown amount of ADDITIONAL force to break the ice. I'm shocked that you are not understanding what I'm talking about.

My point is that others interpret the scene differently, and it's not as clear-cut as you claim. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't accept that the boulder traveled into space either.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Rocket's ship can generate enough thrust to travel faster than light, because it's only been shown to achieve FTL travel using wormholes and the Universal Neural Teleportation Network.

The rings were already exerting force on the ice while trying to turn, but the ice had them stuck. Thor only needed an unknown amount of ADDITIONAL force to break the ice. I'm shocked that you are not understanding what I'm talking about.

My point is that others interpret the scene differently, and it's not as clear-cut as you claim. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't accept that the boulder traveled into space either.

I'll concede that those gates exist in the MCU, but the Guardians found Thor in the middle of nowhere, far from any gate. Their ships still need to be able to achieve speeds far greater than any real spacecraft we've ever built on Earth to travel between planets in different solar systems.

The forge had no power for a long time before Thor arrived. That's why it was frozen in the first place. Now, you could make the argument that the station got power again once the dyson sphere began opening, and the rings started moving on their own, but Thor and Rocket provided the initial pull which overcame the static friction and the ice. Also, the Russos say in the commentary of the scene that this is something very few people in the universe can do, so it's clearly meant to be a herculean feat.

And my point is that whether Banner threw the boulder into space or it exploded, he still generated more force than Juggernaut ever has. Do you agree?

Originally posted by h1a8
The force Abomination generated with his kick is the same as the force needed to jump a great distance, so there's no inconsistency there.

The kicking feat you pointed out shows that Abomination isn't weak.

You're not good at science, reason or logic. So let me break it down for you.

Hulk's Brazil to Guatemala travel distance feat is far more impressive than Abomination's impressive kicking feat. Yet we know Abomination is stronger than the Hulk until he gets full-on raged.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're not good at science, reason or logic. So let me break it down for you.

Hulk's Brazil to Guatemala travel distance feat is far more impressive than Abomination's impressive kicking feat. Yet we know Abomination is stronger than the Hulk until he gets full-on raged.

I never said it wasn't more impressive. Trust me, I've done the calculations. Hulk was clearing about 3 miles per jump to cover the 3580 mile distance in about 10 hour. The force required for each jump is between 1 to 3 times the force of Abomination's kicking feat, still under the 2,000-ton range.

Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats due to inconsistencies in fiction. He only scales to Hulk's average, typical feats.

Next time get a definite false statement from me before claiming I'm not good at science, reason, or logic.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I'll concede that those gates exist in the MCU, but the Guardians found Thor in the middle of nowhere, far from any gate. Their ships still need to be able to achieve speeds far greater than any real spacecraft we've ever built on Earth to travel between planets in different solar systems.

The forge had no power for a long time before Thor arrived. That's why it was frozen in the first place. Now, you could make the argument that the station got power again once the dyson sphere began opening, and the rings started moving on their own, but Thor and Rocket provided the initial pull which overcame the static friction and the ice. Also, the Russos say in the commentary of the scene that this is something very few people in the universe can do, so it's clearly meant to be a herculean feat.

And my point is that whether Banner threw the boulder into space or it exploded, he still generated more force than Juggernaut ever has. Do you agree?

Wrong! They didn't just stumble upon Thor in space - they responded to a distress signal. They jumped to that location and found Thor near the wreckage.

The moment they broke the ice, the rings started moving instantly. That means the rings were stuck but still trying to move the entire time.

Again, Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats, only his average, typical ones. So whether or not the boulder feat is superior is irrelevant, as it's far outside of Hulk's typical showings.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It also expands:

Getting brighter and suddenly expanding over a very short period of time = exploding.

For sandstone (lowballing here) approximately the size of a car, ovoid in shape, to undergo sufficient air friction to glow at high altitudes, you need to be travelling at around 7-8km per second, and that's just to begin glowing red-hot (the boulder is clearly white hot, but let's lowball).

That takes about 270 billion joules of energy, or 27million tons of force in a very short amount of time.

Insane, especially as this Hulk doesn't seem that mad - competitive, yes, but not tooth-gnashingly angry.

I haven't calculated the feat yet, but simply throwing a boulder of that size faster than the speed of sound could potentially be more impressive than the bridge feat. If that's the case, the feat could be used to represent Hulk's strength in a forum debate.

Originally posted by h1a8
I never said it wasn't more impressive. Trust me, I've done the calculations. Hulk was clearing about 3 miles per jump to cover the 3580 mile distance in about 10 hour. The force required for each jump is between 1 to 3 times the force of Abomination's kicking feat, still under the 2,000-ton range.

Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats due to inconsistencies in fiction. He only scales to Hulk's average, typical feats.

Next time get a definite false statement from me before claiming I'm not good at science, reason, or logic.

Your maths and logic definitely sucks and here's another example: If the force is "1-3 times" by yours estimate, that means it could be equal to on the lower end of the spectrum, when it's clearly not, not even close to being equal or even three times greater.

We know Abm kicked the Hulk several city blocks, while the Hulk jumped 3+ miles. If we say it was 3-6 blocks in Harlem and that's fair, that's about a quarter mile average the Hulk was sent flying. Still very impressive, but nowhere near the 3+ to (maybe 5) miles of the other feat. Unless you think a 1 to 12(or greater) ratio is close. Though other people think it was around one city block at best.

Abm does scale, as we have direct correlation in their fight and feats. You claim or dismiss inconsistencies when it suits you. Your attempt here now has been denied. Hulk and Adm scale off each other. Period.

And since you're playing doucebag games, Norton Hulk is the same MCU Hulk, so all of Hulk's MCU greatest feats scale back to Abm, who was stronger than the Hulk until the buttmad happened. That means Abm could literally tear The Juggernaut in half, who had trouble taking out Colossus, a mid-tier brick in Marvel.

Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Yes. He was created using a refined "strength" formula from Banner's blood. They made it very clear that Abm was considerably stronger than the Hulk, until the Hulk got very mad. Which gels with the comic, as that film was written in part by Lee and Kirby after all.

Just because Abm had one leg strength feat that was lesser, doesn't mean Hulk is stronger.

Originally posted by Robtard
Your maths and logic definitely sucks and here's another example: If the force is "1-3 times" by yours estimate, that means it could be equal to on the lower end of the spectrum, when it's clearly not, not even close to being equal or even three times greater.

We know Abm kicked the Hulk several city blocks, while the Hulk jumped 3+ miles. If we say it was 3-6 blocks in Harlem and that's fair, that's about a quarter mile average the Hulk was sent flying. Still very impressive, but nowhere near the 3+ to (maybe 5) miles of the other feat. Unless you think a 1 to 12(or greater) ratio is close. Though other people think it was around one city block at best.

Abm does scale, as we have direct correlation in their fight and feats. You claim or dismiss inconsistencies when it suits you. Your attempt here now has been denied. Hulk and Adm scale off each other. Period.

And since you're playing doucebag games, Norton Hulk is the same MCU Hulk, so all of Hulk's MCU greatest feats scale back to Abm, who was stronger than the Hulk until the buttmad happened. That means Abm could literally tear The Juggernaut in half, who had trouble taking out Colossus, a mid-tier brick in Marvel.

By the way, say no to drugs. Lol.

The impressive part of the Abomination feat wasn't just the distance - it was that Hulk smashed through brick walls and other obstacles in the process. Did you even try calculating it?

Jumping around 3 miles while weighing 1,000 lbs requires roughly 1,000 tons of force. I can walk you through the math if you're interested. I also factored in wind resistance, but it turned out to be negligible (it only adds a small fraction to the result).

Kicking a 1,000 lb opponent a single city block (where are you getting the 3 - 6 block estimate from?) through several brick walls requires between 400 and 1,000 tons of force.

Just because it's the same character doesn't mean they have the same strength in both movies. And due to fictional inconsistencies, you can't scale one character based on another character's outlier feats. You can only scale them off their average typical feats.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Being stronger than someone at their weaker state doesn't mean you're stronger than them at their stronger state. Moreover, even if a character is proven to be stronger in a direct strength comparison, the stronger character doesn't automatically inherit the weaker character's highest outlier feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong! They didn't just stumble upon Thor in space - they responded to a distress signal. They jumped to that location and found Thor near the wreckage.

The moment they broke the ice, the rings started moving instantly. That means the rings were stuck but still trying to move the entire time.

Again, Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats, only his average, typical ones. So whether or not the boulder feat is superior is irrelevant, as it's far outside of Hulk's typical showings.

And where was that wreckage? In the middle of nowhere. Also, do you think that there are gates at every planet? They obviously need to be able to traverse space quickly when they're traveling in or between star systems.

How were they trying to move if there was no power? Why did they freeze in the first place?

No, it's not. Hulk's average includes his fights with Thor, the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, moving Surtur, holding up Avengers mansion with one arm, overpowering Fenrir and the boulder.

Hulk has a lot of good feats, while Juggernaut has one, so if we're going by averages, Hulk >> Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Psychotron
And where was that wreckage? In the middle of nowhere. Also, do you think that there are gates at every planet? They obviously need to be able to traverse space quickly when they're traveling in or between star systems.

How were they trying to move if there was no power? Why did they freeze in the first place?

No, it's not. Hulk's average includes his fights with Thor, the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, moving Surtur, holding up Avengers mansion with one arm, overpowering Fenrir and the boulder.

Hulk has a lot of good feats, while Juggernaut has one, so if we're going by averages, Hulk >> Juggernaut.

What's the point of debating if you're going to forget or ignore my rebuttals? I don't like repeating myself.

I already addressed Hulk's non-Mansion lifting feat and the issue with the Surtur feat. I also pointed out that the Leviathan feat is a standard one, as is battling Fenris. The boulder feat, however, is not standard unless we assume it moved at visual speed (just above the speed of sound).

I noticed you're shifting the goalposts. 'Fast' is a relative term. The claim is that they can achieve FTL through propulsion. When traveling to Thor, they were shown moving through warped space and then instantly dropping out of it upon reaching their destination. Rewatch the scene.

Also, when Rocket fired the engines with Thor attached (after Thor threw it), the ship was traveling well below the speed of light for a significant period, meaning its acceleration was poor in that scene.

As soon as the ice broke, the rings moved instantly. Where did the power come from right after the ice broke? You're making things up just to win the debate.