Juggernaut (Deadpool II) vs Abomination (MCU)

Originally posted by h1a8
By the way, say no to drugs. Lol.

The impressive part of the Abomination feat wasn't just the distance - it was that Hulk smashed through brick walls and other obstacles in the process. Did you even try calculating it?

Jumping around 3 miles while weighing 1,000 lbs requires roughly 1,000 tons of force. I can walk you through the math if you're interested. I also factored in wind resistance, but it turned out to be negligible (it only adds a small fraction to the result).

Kicking a 1,000 lb opponent a single city block (where are you getting the 3 - 6 block estimate from?) through several brick walls requires between 400 and 1,000 tons of force.

Just because it's the same character doesn't mean they have the same strength in both movies. And due to fictional inconsistencies, you can't scale one character based on another character's outlier feats. You can only scale them off their average typical feats.

Being stronger than someone at their weaker state doesn't mean you're stronger than them at their stronger state. Moreover, even if a character is proven to be stronger in a direct strength comparison, the stronger character doesn't automatically inherit the weaker character's highest outlier feats.

That's not how it works.

Abomination is stronger than a 'base' Hulk. Then when Hulk becomes super mad, he becomes stronger than Abomination.

Whatever Hulk can do when not super mad (jumping across countries, engaging in a playful competition with his beloved cousin), Abomination can surpass.

There is no writer intent that Abomination cannot surpass outliers of Hulk when he's calm. He's meant - from the outset - to be stronger than Hulk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's not how it works.

Abomination is stronger than a 'base' Hulk. Then when Hulk becomes super mad, he becomes stronger than Abomination.

Whatever Hulk can do when not super mad (jumping across countries, engaging in a playful competition with his beloved cousin), Abomination can surpass.

There is no writer intent that Abomination cannot surpass outliers of Hulk when he's calm. He's meant - from the outset - to be stronger than Hulk.

Remember that you posted this?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Colossus was using a metal railing as a knuckleduster, hurting Juggernaut.

Juggernaut was grunting with effort when swinging a prison bus as a weapon, even though it should feel like cardboard.

Colossus was also using a car's bumper as a weapon against Juggy, even though he's strong enough to break Juggernaut's bones, and cardboard etc.

And then Yukio tied Juggy up with her little chain whip, but we can excuse that by attributing all sorts of wonderf- wait, no, we need to prove that it has special durability properties.

And I replied with this

Originally posted by h1a8
Exactly! Now you see the inconsistencies in fiction and why it's flawed to scale characters based on another's lowest or highest feats. However, it's acceptable to use the highest direct feats for the actual combatants in the thread, which is why everyone here highlights a character's peak showings during debates.

That said, Hulk made approximately 3-mile jumps if we assume he jumped continuously for 10 hours. That's a standard feat for him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's not how it works.

Abomination is stronger than a 'base' Hulk. Then when Hulk becomes super mad, he becomes stronger than Abomination.

Whatever Hulk can do when not super mad (jumping across countries, engaging in a playful competition with his beloved cousin), Abomination can surpass.

There is no writer intent that Abomination cannot surpass outliers of Hulk when he's calm. He's meant - from the outset - to be stronger than Hulk.

Especially since Smart Hulk's punches didn't do much to Abomination and he has his boulder tossing feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
What's the point of debating if you're going to forget or ignore my rebuttals? I don't like repeating myself.

I already addressed Hulk's non-Mansion lifting feat and the issue with the Surtur feat. I also pointed out that the Leviathan feat is a standard one, as is battling Fenris. The boulder feat, however, is not standard unless we assume it moved at visual speed (just above the speed of sound).

I noticed you're shifting the goalposts. 'Fast' is a relative term. The claim is that they can achieve FTL through propulsion. When traveling to Thor, they were shown moving through warped space and then instantly dropping out of it upon reaching their destination. Rewatch the scene.

Also, when Rocket fired the engines with Thor attached (after Thor threw it), the ship was traveling well below the speed of light for a significant period, meaning its acceleration was poor in that scene.

As soon as the ice broke, the rings moved instantly. Where did the power come from right after the ice broke? You're making things up just to win the debate.

You didn't address the feats, you just decided they don't count. It doesn't work that way. If you agree that the Leviathan punch is a standard feat for Hulk, then Hulk already surpasses Juggernaut, and Abomination is stronger than base Hulk, so what are we arguing about?

I conceded that they have warp portals. They still need to move considerably faster than any real world spacecraft because they traverse star systems very quickly.

You forgot the part where Thor shouted "More power!" to Rocket while they were pulling the rings.

You're dodging the question. Why and how did the rings freeze in the first place? Also, the Russos' blatantly said that Thor is one of the very few beings in the universe that could perform the feat.

The rings started moving because Thor/Rocket overcame the ice and the static friction. It's like pushing a car; once you get it going it's easy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Remember that you posted this?

And I replied with this

That said, Hulk made approximately 3-mile jumps if we assume he jumped continuously for 10 hours. That's a standard feat for him.

Agreed, but Abomination is always meant to be stronger than a calm base Hulk. So whatever a calm base Hulk can do, Abomination surpasses that, due to writer's intent.

Colossus/Juggernaut's relativity to generic iron railings and car bumpers are a separate case.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Especially since Smart Hulk's punches didn't do much to Abomination and he has his boulder tossing feat.

You didn't address the feats, you just decided they don't count. It doesn't work that way. If you agree that the Leviathan punch is a standard feat for Hulk, then Hulk already surpasses Juggernaut, and Abomination is stronger than base Hulk, so what are we arguing about?

I conceded that they have warp portals. They still need to move considerably faster than any real world spacecraft because they traverse star systems very quickly.

You forgot the part where Thor shouted "More power!" to Rocket while they were pulling the rings.

You're dodging the question. Why and how did the rings freeze in the first place? Also, the Russos' blatantly said that Thor is one of the very few beings in the universe that could perform the feat.

The rings started moving because Thor/Rocket overcame the ice and the static friction. It's like pushing a car; once you get it going it's easy.

The Leviathan feat required less than 1,000 tons of force.

Traveling fast and traveling FTL aren't necessarily the same thing.

None of this matters given the ship's acceleration after Thor threw it to add to its speed. "More power" likely implied a reasonable 1.2 to 3 times increase, since Rocket already knew he had to apply a significant amount of thrust from the start.

So you agree that the rings were trying to move when they were stuck? Because once the ice broke, they started moving instantly - no one pressed a button or activated the rings after the ice broke.

Actually I always thought it was the momentum imparted to them which moved the rings.

Like a door that's stuck. I give it a push, it starts moving, and keeps moving until it slams shut.

Nobody sane would argue that the door 'wanted' to move or, conversely , that anyone pushed a button to make it move further.

How were the rings trying to move when the entire thing shut down. The ice formed because it's cold in outerspace and the entire mechanism was stagnant for a long period.

What am I missing here? Do the rings still move when everything else is shut down?

Originally posted by tkitna
How were the rings trying to move when the entire thing shut down. The ice formed because it's cold in outerspace and the entire mechanism was stagnant for a long period.

What am I missing here? Do the rings still move when everything else is shut down?

Originally posted by h1a8
The Leviathan feat required less than 1,000 tons of force.

Traveling fast and traveling FTL aren't necessarily the same thing.

None of this matters given the ship's acceleration after Thor threw it to add to its speed. "More power" likely implied a reasonable 1.2 to 3 times increase, since Rocket already knew he had to apply a significant amount of thrust from the start.

So you agree that the rings were trying to move when they were stuck? Because once the ice broke, they started moving instantly - no one pressed a button or activated the rings after the ice broke.

Based on what? You have no idea what the Leviathan weighed. It's an alien creature, covered in alien metal. There's no way to calculate the force if you're being honest. And that feat was performed by a freshly-transformed Hulk, so Hulk at his weakest. Abomination easily overpowered base Hulk when they met. In fact, he almost KO'd the Hulk with his first attack.

I know, but to traverse a solar system you still need to generate an insane amount of thrust. It would take traveling at over 20% of the speed of light to reach the edge of our solar system in 1 day if you start at the centre. Unless you think the Guardians take months/years to travel between planets in the same system, you have to concede that their ships are capable of reaching relativistic speeds.

The ship had already stopped accelerating when Thor told Rocket to increase the power.

No, I'm saying the opposite. And you still haven't answered why the rings had already been covered in ice when Thor arrived. I'll tell you: it's because the station had no power, the neutron star was sealed and there was no way to move the rings until Thor and Rocket re-ignited the forge by manually moving the rings.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think h1's new angle of attack is that the rings were always going to move of their own accord, they were just stuck in place by ice (lol) which Thor and Rocket broke. Once broken, the rings just 'snapped' into place.

And how that ice formed when the rings were moving is a question he really wants to dodge.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think h1's new angle of attack is that the rings were always going to move of their own accord, they were just stuck in place by ice (lol) which Thor and Rocket broke. Once broken, the rings just 'snapped' into place.

H1 is making things up because he has no real argument again. Eitri tells Thor "You'll have to restart the forge. Awaken the heart of a dying star." Then Rocket who is a literally a science super-genius questions the implausibility of moving rings of that size.

That was another feat of extremely high strength and durability for Thor.

Originally posted by tkitna
How were the rings trying to move when the entire thing shut down. The ice formed because it's cold in outerspace and the entire mechanism was stagnant for a long period.

What am I missing here? Do the rings still move when everything else is shut down?

Yet the motor kept turning in circles right after the ice broke. The rings were stuck because of the ice.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Actually I always thought it was the momentum imparted to them which moved the rings.

Like a door that's stuck. I give it a push, it starts moving, and keeps moving until it slams shut.

Nobody sane would argue that the door 'wanted' to move or, conversely , that anyone pushed a button to make it move further.

A door doesn't have a motor. Your analogies are getting worse.

Think of fan blades being held while the fan is on - once you release them, they start moving.

None of this matters, though, since we can clearly see how much acceleration the ship was providing.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet the motor kept turning in circles right after the ice broke. The rings were stuck because of the ice.

A door doesn't have a motor. Your analogies are getting worse.

Think of fan blades being held while the fan is on - once you release them, they start moving.

None of this matters, though, since we can clearly see how much acceleration the ship was providing.

What motor?

I am talking about the rings, as we all (supposedly) were. Where is the motor for this ring?

Edit: also, I thought this fan in your analogy - I thought it had been turned off, in fact, turned off for so long ice/rust had formed on its blades.

So if it had been turned off....and spinning the blades is turning it on..... Simply breaking off the ice/rust/ whatever isn't turning it on, lol

H1 doesn't know what he's talking about. The neutron star at the center of the forge is the power source for the forge. Thor had to break the ice, get the massive rings moving to open the massive Dyson sphere covering the star to reignite it, once all that happened, the forge was powering itself from the star's energy. But sure, that seems like an easy feat.

So we have:

The rings would have moved if the ice magically disappeared
vs.
The rings would not have moved if the ice magically disappeared.

Exhibit A: The central motor starts spinning the moment the ice breaks. It is shown to spin at a higher frequency than the rings were (i.e., not in one-to-one correspondence). In one scene, the rings appear to start moving seconds after both the ice breaks and the motor begins spinning.

Exhibit B: The acceleration of the rocket, which provided the pulling force, was not significantly large and is visible when Thor isn't anchored to the ring.

Exibit C: The rings seem to have been designed to align and misalign as an intentional control mechanism, allowing the forge to be turned off when not in use and enhancing safety. The way they rotated smoothly back into place suggests a precise, self-regulating design. This could imply that the ship wasn't essential once the ice was broken - perhaps it just helped the rings move a bit faster than they would have naturally. Ultimately, we can't be certain either way.

Exhibit D: Rocket clearly says, "You gonna need something bigger to yank them loose," supporting the plan to free the rings from the ice.

Plus Abomination, as per writer's intent, being stronger than Hulk when he's calm.

You have the Russos saying that this is an extraordinary feat that only a handful of beings in the UNIVERSE could have performed, but you still insist on arguing that it was all some central motor that mysteriously got frozen for no reason.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus Abomination, as per writer's intent, being stronger than Hulk when he's calm.

Lmao what? Hulk's dynamic strength is a core power of his powerset.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk's strength fluctuates due to fiction inconsistency.
Abom is only stronger when Hulk is operating at typical levels.
These are not the comic versions.

I know they're not, just like I didn't mention Ultimate versions in the movie Vs forum.

Writer intent is not that he's only stronger at typical levels, or average levels, or what have you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I know they're not, just like I didn't mention Ultimate versions in the movie Vs forum.

Writer intent is not that he's only stronger at typical levels, or average levels, or what have you.

Writer intent doesn't matter here. Otherwise, Colossus would be a planet buster (or at least a mountain range buster) based on the writer's intent that he is a peer to Gladiator, given their prolonged fight. Yet, in a forum debate, most people agree that Colossus is fodder to Gladiator, who could one-shot him, as could Thor with Mjolnir. There are plenty of examples where a writer intends for one character to be a physical peer to another, but scaling a character's outlier feats this way would yield absurd results.