Juggernaut (Deadpool II) vs Abomination (MCU)

Originally posted by h1a8
Rewatch all the scenes and estimate the level of strength Hulk is displaying. Would you place it at 50 tons, 100 tons, or something else?

Hulk uses car parts as weapons, even though those parts should feel like cardboard to beings of this caliber. Hulk gets hurt and nearly knocked out by steel chains, while Abomination is choked and unable to break free from them - both of which should be insignificant to beings of their strength. Abomination runs away from helicopter fire as if it poses a serious threat.

Lastly, consider the distances they jump, throw objects, and strike things away. In each instance, we can reasonably estimate their strength, which consistently appears to be below 100 tons. The only outlier is Abomination's kicking feat, which, at most, suggests a strength level of around 300 tons.

And then we have a freshly-transformed Hulk taking out a Leviathan with one punch in Avengers, while Abomination easily overpowered Hulk before his rage increased his strength enough to beat Blonsky. You love to ignore this because it kills your argument, but they're the same character. There's no evidence or any kind of statement that supports your claim that Hulk got an amp between The Incredible Hulk and Avengers.

These kinds of inconsistencies happen all the time in movies and comics. Spider-man can barely hold a cable car in Spider-man 1, but he stops an entire train Spider-man 2. Wolverine gets knocked out by a bullet to the skull in X2 but he tanks Jean's tk in X3. Tony tanks an F-22 and a direct hit from an actual tank in Iron Man but he gets pieced up by Captain America in h2h in Civil War.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Agreed.

He'd have a stronger argument saying Smart Hulk is weaker simply because it's a clearly different incarnation of Hulk who is physically smaller.

Interestingly Abom takes a few punches from a p***ed Smart Hulk in the She-Hulk finale, although She-Hulk got the scene overwritten so that Hulk was never there.

Annd Smart Hulk has that feat of throwing a boulder hard enough that it ignites from the air friction which easily puts him in Class 100 too.

Just for fun I had chatgpt do h1a8 calculations on the boulder scene. According to the AI, the force required is equivalent to 28,000 metric tons. And Abomination took punches from that guy.

Originally posted by Psychotron
And then we have a freshly-transformed Hulk taking out a Leviathan with one punch in Avengers, while Abomination easily overpowered Hulk before his rage increased his strength enough to beat Blonsky. You love to ignore this because it kills your argument, but they're the same character. There's no evidence or any kind of statement that supports your claim that Hulk got an amp between The Incredible Hulk and Avengers.

These kinds of inconsistencies happen all the time in movies and comics. Spider-man can barely hold a cable car in Spider-man 1, but he stops an entire train Spider-man 2. Wolverine gets knocked out by a bullet to the skull in X2 but he tanks Jean's tk in X3. Tony tanks an F-22 and a direct hit from an actual tank in Iron Man but he gets pieced up by Captain America in h2h in Civil War.

Annd Smart Hulk has that feat of throwing a boulder hard enough that it ignites from the air friction which easily puts him in Class 100 too.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. You can't scale The Incredible Hulk's Abomination to Professor Hulk because Hulk outside of The Incredible Hulk was significantly stronger.

2. Hulk fighting Abomination in She-Hulk never happened - it was erased.

3. When characters are compared using ABC logic, they don't share their highest feats; they share their average feats. So, Abomination only scales to Hulk's average feats.

4. The bridge feat is significantly beyond anything Hulk has done at an average level. Personally, I don't see any Hulk replicating that feat.

Ill ignore 1. and 2.

You still have an issue with point 3, and you even proved it yourself in this post when you pointed out the large inconsistencies in fictional characters. That's why you can only scale a character based on their average showings, not their best or worst outliers.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Just for fun I had chatgpt do h1a8 calculations on the boulder scene. According to the AI, the force required is equivalent to 28,000 metric tons. And Abomination took punches from that guy.

I'll calculate it myself. Then ill check it with the AI.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't even address these points

Yes, because it's pointless. They're the same character.

So why use point 4 (Juggernaut's bridge feat) yet decry high outliers in point 3?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So why use point 4 (Juggernaut's bridge feat) yet decry high outliers in point 3?

There's an important distinction to make here. While it's common and acceptable to reference a character's highest feats in a debate, it's faulty to apply those same standards when scaling combatants based on their encounters with non-combatants (ABC logic). This approach ignores the fact that fictional characters often exhibit inconsistent feats.

For example, Supergirl may casually lift a half-million-ton key in one instance, only to struggle with a ~100-ton object later. So, when another character, say X, fights her, she could be operating at the half-million-ton level, the ~100-ton level, or her most typical shown range (somewhere in between). The most logical assumption is that she was performing at her typical range during the fight.

Another example is Gladiator, who once busted a small planet with his punches (far exceeding mountain-level power). Yet Colossus, who fought him for an extended time, tanked his blows. Does that mean Colossus has planet-busting durability, making him immune to anything less than quadrillions of tons of force in a forum fight? Obviously not. Same goes for Classic Drax vs Mar-vell, etc.

These examples highlight why ABC logic is unreliable. It oversimplifies characters' fluctuating power levels, which is why I avoid using it in debates.

Using this logic, Hulk's average should be the average between The Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Avengers AoU, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, Thor: Ragnarok and She-Hulk. Off the top of my head, Hulk gets the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, overpowering Thor, holding up Avengers Mansion with only one arm, overpowering Fenrir, moving Surtur with an attack and throwing a boulder hard to reach escape velocity.

What's the average here, h1a8?

Originally posted by Psychotron
Using this logic, Hulk's average should be the average between The Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Avengers AoU, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, Thor: Ragnarok and She-Hulk. Off the top of my head, Hulk gets the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, overpowering Thor, holding up Avengers Mansion with only one arm, overpowering Fenrir, moving Surtur with an attack and throwing a boulder hard to reach escape velocity.

What's the average here, h1a8?

Hulk has quite a few showings, including his fight with the Hulkbuster and various scenes in Avengers 1, etc. The Leviathan feat is a solid example of his typical power level, but it's noticeably lower than the bridge-breaking feat.

The scene with Surtur raises several issues and can reasonably be dismissed as a non-feat.

Regarding the rock throw, it clearly wasn't at escape velocity. At best, we can estimate the speed of sound at minimum, supported by the sonic boom and its visible speed.

Thor's strength isn't on the same level—he's not performing feats like Juggernaut bridge feat with his fists.

As for Hulk holding up the mansion when Thanos bombed it, we don't have specifics on the amount of weight Hulk was holding, but it's certainly far less than the entire mansion.

The Leviathan feat is noticeably lower than breaking a concrete bridge?

Lolololol

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk has quite a few showings, including his fight with the Hulkbuster and various scenes in Avengers 1, etc. The Leviathan feat is a solid example of his typical power level, but it's noticeably lower than the bridge-breaking feat.

The scene with Surtur raises several issues and can reasonably be dismissed as a non-feat.

Regarding the rock throw, it clearly wasn't at escape velocity. At best, we can estimate the speed of sound at minimum, supported by the sonic boom and its visible speed.

Thor's strength isn't on the same level—he's not performing feats like Juggernaut bridge feat with his fists.

As for Hulk holding up the mansion when Thanos bombed it, we don't have specifics on the amount of weight Hulk was holding, but it's certainly far less than the entire mansion.

Punching a hole in a bridge is more impressive than stopping a leviathan? What a joke your physics teacher larp is.

Hulk threw the boulder hard enough for it to ignite and explode due to friction. That's 100% escape velocity.

Why, because you don't like it?

Thor's feat of aligning Nidavellir's rings and re-igniting the forge puts him multiple strength tiers above Juggernaut. Those rings easily weigh in the multi-million ton range. Since those rings were stationary and frozen when Thor arrived, he had to overpower the static friction and break the ice to move them, and if you're gonna say that it was in space, Nidavellir is situated in the gravitational influence of a neutron star which is a lot more powerful than Earth's gravity. Thor was working against that gravity.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Punching a hole in a bridge is more impressive than stopping a leviathan? What a joke your physics teacher larp is.

Hulk threw the boulder hard enough for it to ignite and explode due to friction. That's 100% escape velocity.

Why, because you don't like it?

Thor's feat of aligning Nidavellir's rings and re-igniting the forge puts him multiple strength tiers above Juggernaut. Those rings easily weigh in the multi-million ton range. Since those rings were stationary and frozen when Thor arrived, he had to overpower the static friction and break the ice to move them, and if you're gonna say that it was in space, Nidavellir is situated in the gravitational influence of a neutron star which is a lot more powerful than Earth's gravity. Thor was working against that gravity.

I will address every point you made, unlike some troll posters do here.

Punch a hole in a bridge? Rewatch the bridge scene, you're missing a lot.
Look a 0:15

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1. Juggernaut first punched through a solid steel floor. Do you know how much kinetic energy that absorbs before he even hit the bridge?
2. The strike was so powerful that it not only created a visible shockwave that lifted the massive truck into the air, but also instantly created a rippled Shockwave in the reinforced concrete that spanned over 1,000 square feet, eventually leaving a large gaping hole in the bridge.
3. The bridge was made of steel-reinforced concrete. It takes more than 4,000 tons of force to accomplish that feat exactly.

I worked out the science behind the rings a while ago. The rings were trying to move, but they were stuck in ice. All Thor had to do was add enough force to break the ice. For ice to stop something from moving, its resisting force has to exceed the force trying to move it, even if it's just by 1 pound. That means Thor could have exerted as little as 1 pound of force to break the ice since the rings were already providing additional force. Obviously, he applied more than that, but you get the point. The feat is unquantifiable unless we know the exact specs of Rocket's ship.

In short, the ship was supplying the actual pulling force. Thor was bracing against it as an anchor. Do you really believe that ship could reasonably pull more than 100 tons of force?

Gravity had no impact on this feat, as others were able to stand and move around unaffected. Plus, the ship did the pulling while Thor did the holding and bracing.

You're backtracking again. You can't use a character's highest feats to scale another character. Do you really believe Thor could replicate that bridge feat with his bare fist?

The boulder wasn't shown to ignite or explode; it just traveled far enough to disappear from view. The sound you hear is a sonic boom. Stop believing the misinformation you find online.

Actually, you see the boulder ignite/explode:

Moving the brightness down etc, shows this quite clearly:

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk uses car parts as weapons, even though those parts should feel like cardboard to beings of this caliber. Hulk gets hurt and nearly knocked out by steel chains, while Abomination is choked and unable to break free from them - both of which should be insignificant to beings of their strength. Abomination runs away from helicopter fire as if it poses a serious threat.

Colossus was using a metal railing as a knuckleduster, hurting Juggernaut.

Juggernaut was grunting with effort when swinging a prison bus as a weapon, even though it should feel like cardboard.

Colossus was also using a car's bumper as a weapon against Juggy, even though he's strong enough to break Juggernaut's bones, and cardboard etc.

And then Yukio tied Juggy up with her little chain whip, but we can excuse that by attributing all sorts of wonderf- wait, no, we need to prove that it has special durability properties.

Originally posted by h1a8
I will address every point you made, unlike some troll posters do here.

Punch a hole in a bridge? Rewatch the bridge scene, you're missing a lot.

1. Juggernaut first punched through a solid steel floor. Do you know how much kinetic energy that absorbs before he even hit the bridge?
2. The strike was so powerful that it not only created a visible shockwave that lifted the massive truck into the air, but also instantly created a rippled Shockwave in the reinforced concrete that spanned over 1,000 square feet, eventually leaving a large gaping hole in the bridge.
3. The bridge was made of steel-reinforced concrete. It takes more than 4,000 tons of force to accomplish that feat exactly.

I worked out the science behind the rings a while ago. The rings were trying to move, but they were stuck in ice. All Thor had to do was add enough force to break the ice. For ice to stop something from moving, its resisting force has to exceed the force trying to move it, even if it's just by 1 pound. That means Thor could have exerted as little as 1 pound of force to break the ice since the rings were already providing additional force. Obviously, he applied more than that, but you get the point. The feat is unquantifiable unless we know the exact specs of Rocket's ship.

In short, the ship was supplying the actual pulling force. Thor was bracing against it as an anchor. Do you really believe that ship could reasonably pull more than 100 tons of force?

Gravity had no impact on this feat, as others were able to stand and move around unaffected. Plus, the ship did the pulling while Thor did the holding and bracing.

You're backtracking again. You can't use a character's highest feats to scale another character. Do you really believe Thor could replicate that bridge feat with his bare fist?

The boulder wasn't shown to ignite or explode; it just traveled far enough to disappear from view. The sound you hear is a sonic boom. Stop believing the misinformation you find online.

I did rewatch the bridge scene. There's a hole. Much of the bridge was still standing after the punch. 4000 tons isn't much for Hulk and Thor based on their feats.

You didn't work out shit. The Forge was disabled a long time before Infinity War, the neutron star was sealed and rings were stopped completely.

Yes, the ship was doing the pulling, but Thor acted as an anchor. His grip, back and legs needed to be strong enough to hold the rope. Grip strength gives out first when performing heavy pulls, so that shows that Thor's larger muscle groups (legs, back chest) were even stronger.

Rocket's ship is capable of FTL travel. Of course it can exert more than 100 tons of force. What kind of ridiculous question is that?

Ah okay, gravity doesn't count now. Cool. Very scientific.

There's no reason to believe Thor can't replicate the bridge feat based on his own feats. He went toe to toe with the Hulk in H2H before Hulk's rage amped his strength enough to overpower Thor.

The boulder absolutely exploded. You're either lying or trolling at this point.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I did rewatch the bridge scene. There's a hole. Much of the bridge was still standing after the punch. 4000 tons isn't much for Hulk and Thor based on their feats.

You didn't work out shit. The Forge was disabled a long time before Infinity War, the neutron star was sealed and rings were stopped completely.

Yes, the ship was doing the pulling, but Thor acted as an anchor. His grip, back and legs needed to be strong enough to hold the rope. Grip strength gives out first when performing heavy pulls, so that shows that Thor's larger muscle groups (legs, back chest) were even stronger.

Rocket's ship is capable of FTL travel. Of course it can exert more than 100 tons of force. What kind of ridiculous question is that?

Ah okay, gravity doesn't count now. Cool. Very scientific.

There's no reason to believe Thor can't replicate the bridge feat based on his own feats. He went toe to toe with the Hulk in H2H before Hulk's rage amped his strength enough to overpower Thor.

The boulder absolutely exploded. You're either lying or trolling at this point.

So, you agree that the ring feat is unquantifiable because we don't know the force the ship can exert, correct?

Traveling FTL alone doesn't mean much unless we understand the mechanics behind it—whether it's through propulsion, warping space, hyperdimensional travel, etc.

Now, prove that the boulder exploded. I can show you several websites (with some of them attempt to calculate the feat) where people believe it created a sonic boom and then went into space. From my perspective, it seemed to leave a dust trail while traveling a great distance.

Why would the average person even believe a large boulder would explode when thrown, rather than simply going into orbit? We've seen countless examples of fictional characters throwing objects like trees or baseballs into space without them exploding first.

Even if you're right, those aren't average typical showings, so you can't scale other characters based on them.

That leaves you back at square one - Thor doesn't have any feats that make it believable he could replicate that exact accomplishment.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Colossus was using a metal railing as a knuckleduster, hurting Juggernaut.

Juggernaut was grunting with effort when swinging a prison bus as a weapon, even though it should feel like cardboard.

Colossus was also using a car's bumper as a weapon against Juggy, even though he's strong enough to break Juggernaut's bones, and cardboard etc.

And then Yukio tied Juggy up with her little chain whip, but we can excuse that by attributing all sorts of wonderf- wait, no, we need to prove that it has special durability properties.

Exactly! Now you see the inconsistencies in fiction and why it's flawed to scale characters based on another's lowest or highest feats. However, it's acceptable to use the highest direct feats for the actual combatants in the thread, which is why everyone here highlights a character's peak showings during debates.

Originally posted by h1a8
So, you agree that the ring feat is unquantifiable because we don't know the force the ship can exert, correct?

Traveling FTL alone doesn't mean much unless we understand the mechanics behind it—whether it's through propulsion, warping space, hyperdimensional travel, etc.

Now, prove that the boulder exploded. I can show you several websites (with some of them attempt to calculate the feat) where people believe it created a sonic boom and then went into space. From my perspective, it seemed to leave a dust trail while traveling a great distance.

Why would the average person even believe a large boulder would explode when thrown, rather than simply going into orbit? We've seen countless examples of fictional characters throwing objects like trees or baseballs into space without them exploding first.

Even if you're right, those aren't average typical showings, so you can't scale other characters based on them.

That leaves you back at square one - Thor doesn't have any feats that make it believable he could replicate that exact accomplishment.

No, I don't. You're just speculating. It's never been said or implied that the space ships in GotG travel through anything but propulsion.

I don't need to look at websites, h1. My eyes work and I can look at the scene for myself. It exploded. Now, if you want to pretend that didn't happen and the boulder went into space, then that still puts Smart Hulk into the multi-thousand ton range which is more than suffient to replicate the bridge feat.

Are you taking the piss ? Meteors explode in the atmosphere due to the high speed and friction all the time. Don't tell me you didn't know that.

Thor has fought Hulk twice and was presented as a physical peer to Hulk both times until Hulk's rage built up enough for Hulk to overpower Thor. He's stopped a punch from Hulk with one arm, so you're wrong. That is a typical showing for him. That + his Nidavellir feats put him far above Juggernaut.

Originally posted by h1a8
Exactly! Now you see the inconsistencies in fiction and why it's flawed to scale characters based on another's lowest or highest feats. However, it's acceptable to use the highest direct feats for the actual combatants in the thread, which is why everyone here highlights a character's peak showings during debates.

Your original post was about how weak those characters (i.e. Hulk and Abomination) were depicted in that film.

My post is about how weak Juggernaut and Colossus were depicted in the Deadpool film, and that the bridge is a likely outlier (I don't particularly care at the moment about how many tons of force it takes etc)..

Also, it's no dust trail left by the boulder as it flashes bright momentarily, as my screenshot amply displays.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Your original post was about how weak those characters (i.e. Hulk and Abomination) were depicted in that film.

My post is about how weak Juggernaut and Colossus were depicted in the Deadpool film, and that the bridge is a likely outlier (I don't particularly care at the moment about how many tons of force it takes etc)..

Also, it's no dust trail left by the boulder as it flashes bright momentarily, as my screenshot amply displays.

I didn't notice any inconsistencies in The Incredible Hulk until Robtard pointed out the kicking feat. After that, I accepted the feat (Abomination's highest outlier) as his strength level for forum debates.

It looks like a dust trail to me, although the boulder does seem to get brighter at the end. Still, it looks like it just traveled far away. Many on other sites are claiming it went into outer space. I disagree with that.

Saying Norton's Hulk (which is the same MCU Hulk) is weak, is a silly and sissyboy's argument. eg Jumping from Brazil to Guatemala overnight is an extremely high feat of strength, as the Hulk would have had to clears many, many miles of distance per leap. There's more feats.

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to even the most southern border of Guatemala is 4,100+ miles.