Originally posted by Smurph
but with Deathstroke/Catwoman, sure.
I think Pr's post was that DS was a low showing for WW, and thus, doesn't count, as it was PIS.
OTOH, with Batman, Pr is saying - as I, Carver, and Leo in the past, said - that Batman is a special case:
Originally posted by -Pr-
But again, we make exceptions for people like Batman. People that can survive attacks from heralds and karate chop manhunter robots.
Originally posted by Galan007
He's done it too consistently for it to be considered "PIS", imo.
Originally posted by Smurph
No, Pr's point in each instance was that Batman is a "special case" insofar as he shouldn't be viewed as dragging down the overall performance of high tier characters. He said "Batman doesn't count" in that post in response to you asking about Batman and others punching above their weight class. Your point was that heralds shouldn't be protected by the rules because tiers are a forum invention. Pr said the full capacity rule applies equally to streets and heralds and exceptional performances like Batman's don't "count" in the sense that we recognize Batman is Batman and it doesn't change Wonder Woman's overall capability level.
He wasn't saying Batman is immune from the rules. He was saying Batman doesn't count for Wonder Woman's full capacity.
And it's basically the same exchange he has with Stilt about Slade and Wonder Woman: "You ****ing know Deathstroke doesn't count."
Edit: and the same exchange he has with Alberto about Batman not counting towards Grundy's overall fluctuations
Originally posted by Senor CageThe reason I haven't been answering your points about skill is just because it's so subjective at their level.
Wally was able to take out the whole Rogue's when serious. But like I said, the whole Elektra/Batman fight won't be decided on speed. Skill is the answer and Bruce wins in that category.
Like we could objectively say (imo) that Elektra is more skilled than, say, Catwoman. Or Batman is more skilled than Spider-Man. That stuff is fairly obvious on a review of the characters. But once you get to the upper tier of either company's skilled streets, it's almost entirely up to reader preference because there are no real metrics.
On the one hand, DC has the various iterations of Karate Kid, and Bats looked ok against Threeboot. But all one can really say about that is that Elektra hasn't faced Karate Kid.
On the other hand, Marvel has a much more populated body of high skilled streets because the company produces more titles at that level, and Elektra is pretty definitively among the very top. See her fight with IF, for instance. Daredevil doubting her can beat her anymore. Or the recognition from posters on here that Black Widow is probably more skilled than WW these days, in part because of the big push she's gotten, most notably (arguably) by stalemating Elektra:
Originally posted by Philosophía
I'd go with Black Widow. Reputation -- be it lip-service or history ['immortal' who trained with the God of War/Amazons/more skilled than legends etc.] is just not enough for me. If this reputation is put to practice and she starts going up against highly skilled martial artists and does great [while close to normal human and not just "holding back her strength"], I'd change my mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see her beat somebody really good, but I can't put a theoretical against somebody who actually took on really good people -- BW's showing against Elektra for one is still the one of the craziest boosts I've seen a street have.
So Elektra's near the top of a pretty crowded skill pyramid at Marvel, but that doesn't mean that Batman isn't just as good, since the Bat Family stands for skill in DC. I don't imagine in a crossover that either would be shown as more skilled than the other, so I think it's a bit of a wash.
And as I said at the beginning of the thread, obviously Bruce takes this with gadgets.
Originally posted by Smurph
Pr said the full capacity rule applies equally to streets and heralds and exceptional performances like Batman's don't "count" in the sense that we recognize Batman is Batman and it doesn't change Wonder Woman's overall capability level.
And this is what I am referring to this entire time. I take his point and understand it - WW isn't suddenly human street level because of Batman - but this is because Batman is Batman.
A special case.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85A special exception when figuring out Wonder Woman's full capacity. Or the full capacity of other heralds he's faced in the JLA etc.
And this is what I am referring to this entire time. I take his point and understand it - WW isn't suddenly human street level because of Batman - but this is because Batman is Batman.A special case.
Not a special exemption to the rules writ large.
I think you've cherry picked these quotes so often that you've created a fiction about how Batman works on the forum.
correct. full capacity doesn't include blatant outliers. and yes, even for Batman, beating up the jla in cqc IS an outlier. so is moving ftl. the whole discussion has been a microcosm of every argument in the history of kmc lol he can fight at full capacity! what's his/her full capacity? it's this! no it isn't that's pis! rinse repeat for every thread. ever. it really does feel like a lot of very obvious things have needed to be said in this thread. :/
On the other hand, Marvel has a much more populated body of high skilled streets because the company produces more titles at that level, and Elektra is pretty definitively among the very top. See her fight with IF, for instance. Daredevil doubting her can beat her anymore. Or the recognition from posters on here that Black Widow is probably more skilled than WW these days, in part because of the big push she's gotten, most notably (arguably) by stalemating Elektra:
Not sure I agree. DC has just as many high level streets as Marvel. And Batman has faced off against pretty much all of them, for the exception of the obscure ones.
Originally posted by Smurph
No, Pr's point in each instance was that Batman is a "special case" insofar as he shouldn't be viewed as dragging down the overall performance of high tier characters. He said "Batman doesn't count" in that post in response to you asking about Batman and others punching above their weight class. Your point was that heralds shouldn't be protected by the rules because tiers are a forum invention. Pr said the full capacity rule applies equally to streets and heralds and exceptional performances like Batman's don't "count" in the sense that we recognize Batman is Batman and it doesn't change Wonder Woman's overall capability level.He wasn't saying Batman is immune from the rules. He was saying Batman doesn't count for Wonder Woman's full capacity.
And it's basically the same exchange he has with Stilt about Slade and Wonder Woman: "You ****ing know Deathstroke doesn't count."
Edit: and the same exchange he has with Alberto about Batman not counting towards Grundy's overall fluctuations
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Forgot to reply to this:
On the one hand, DC has the various iterations of Karate Kid, and Bats looked ok against Threeboot. But all one can really say about that is that Elektra hasn't faced Karate Kid.
But we DO know that Bruce has and looked decent against even Pre-Crisis Val, and somewhat stalemating 3boot. While we DO know Widow was able to do well against Elektra. Nobody would ever say Widow is close to Val.
Originally posted by Senor CageI think you're reversing the significance here.
Forgot to reply to this:But we DO know that Bruce has and looked decent against even Pre-Crisis Val, and somewhat stalemating 3boot. While we DO know Widow was able to do well against Elektra. Nobody would ever say Widow is close to Val.
Widow stalemating Elektra was a huge boost for Widow. You can see it reflected in other recent showings from her. It's not a low showing for Elektra.
Originally posted by Smurph
I think you're reversing the significance here.Widow stalemating Elektra was a huge boost for Widow. You can see it reflected in other recent showings from her. It's not a low showing for Elektra.
Just saying that Widow isn't on the level of a Cassandra or even Bruce, IMO. Not saying it's a low showing because she has enhanced stats.
Looking at Superman's ranking, where would you rank Elektra or even DD? Numbers wise