Batman vs Daredevil

Originally posted by Smurph
👆 Those are all good, but except for the baseball scene they're not as good as Elektra moving her arm faster than the bullet fired point blank in front of her.

And the baseball scene is great, but it's one of those "impossible but possible because Batman" scenes that I see as being much more about Batman's cool factor than about the speed of his arms.

But the point being that Batman is consistently shown as fast. And I would argue the scene where he moves his entire upper body from a bullet fired point blank at him through a door is more impressive, or him moving his head out of a point-blank girder thrown his way by Gotham (which is thrown hard enough to obliterate the Batmobile) is more impressive.

And then he is avoiding gunfire shot at his back whilst heavily injured. I take your point on the missile/Batarang, though that is more of an accuracy feat tbh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the point being that Batman is consistently shown as fast. And I would argue the scene where he moves his entire upper body from a bullet fired point blank at him through a door is more impressive, or him moving his head out of a point-blank girder thrown his way by Gotham (which is thrown hard enough to obliterate the Batmobile) is more impressive.

And then he is avoiding gunfire shot at his back whilst heavily injured. I take your point on the missile/Batarang, though that is more of an accuracy feat tbh.

What sets the Elektra feat apart, in my view, is that she moves entirely after the bullet is fired, and it's point blank. Also, we have a bunch of explicit text from the Red Fist Saga confirming that both Matt and Elektra got speed and strength upgrades when they became King and Queen of The Fist. And the Fist has since disbanded but Elektra is still pushed as faster - so idk if it's the same magic upgrade or just Marvel pushing her in her new role as Daredevil. Because even prior to the Fist upgrade, she was doing similar stuff against the Bullseye clones:

Whatever the cause, now we're getting stuff like "too fast for bullets" as captioned in the fight against Punisher 2. Batman is fast but I don't think he's ever been described as too fast for bullets /shrug

And the Batman feats shown are all prior to his upgrade where all of his injuries etc are gone and he's now faster:

But even before this, I wouldn't bet against comics not saying he was too fast for bullets:

But we have more bullet dodging at point blank/close range - again, this is before he gets upgraded:

Just like Neo.

Yep, that's fast, but less impressive than the Elektra showings. Especially when we can see that she moves entirely after the trigger is pulled.

Here's the quote I was thinking about where Matt calls her the fastest.

Again, I think Matt can match all of Bruce's showings vs gunfire, and Elektra is faster than him.

That's...a bit shaky, imo.

It's like saying Angel Breaker has better bullet feats (which are far more impressive than Elektra's/Matts, btw):

And yet, Batman isn't too slow to disarm her:
https://imgur.com/a/MTYkslR

Which would be the same outcome here, only Batman in round 1 would be moving faster (without 10 tons of gear and a cape etc weighing him down) and in round 2 would have all of his gear.

I never called Batman slow, I said that Elektra is faster. The Angel Breaker scans don't disprove that.

I was making the point that Batman is fast enough to disarm a character who has a much more impressive feat than Elektra's.

Whilst weighed down by all his equipment, and before he had his upgrade.

I mean for what it's worth, Elektra has similar feats to the Angel Breaker one: https://imgur.com/Xpmuvpj

But the comparison between her and AB seems neither here nor there because AB isn't in the fight and Batman's "feat" doesn't establish that he's faster than AB in any event.

Originally posted by Smurph
I mean for what it's worth, Elektra has similar feats to the Angel Breaker one: https://imgur.com/Xpmuvpj

But the comparison between her and AB seems neither here nor there because AB isn't in the fight and Batman's "feat" doesn't establish that he's faster than AB in any event.

For example, if a bullet is fired at Elektra from 60 feet away, she would only need to move her arms about 1 foot in the time it takes the bullet to cover that distance. This means she would only need to move at roughly 1/60th of the bullet's speed to block it - still a superhuman level of perception.

I believe Superman threw that baseball at a speed far exceeding that of a bullet. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that Batman and Elektra are comparable in combat speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Mathematically, blocking an object launched at a distance requires moving at only a fraction of its speed.

For example, if a bullet is fired at Elektra from 60 feet away, she would only need to move her arms about 1 foot in the time it takes the bullet to cover that distance. This means she would only need to move at roughly 1/60th of the bullet's speed to block it - still a superhuman level of perception.

I believe Superman threw that baseball at a speed far exceeding that of a bullet. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that Batman and Elektra are comparable in combat speed.

As for your bit about the math, that's why I think this is more impressive than the other feats being discussed:

Originally posted by Smurph

Originally posted by Smurph
I don't think you know what that word means

Also, lol, Katana isn't in this thread

Originally posted by Smurph
Oh, is he arguing that it's PIS for Elektra?

I mean, those are three moments in as many issues. The intent and consistency both seem clear to me. And it lines up with her boost since 2021/2 or so.

As for Bruce, I don't see the showings as remotely comparable. I love a good "because Batman" moment as much as anyone though. 👆

Originally posted by Smurph
👆 Those are all good, but except for the baseball scene they're not as good as Elektra moving her arm faster than the bullet fired point blank in front of her.

And the baseball scene is great, but it's one of those "impossible but possible because Batman" scenes that I see as being much more about Batman's cool factor than about the speed of his arms.

Also lulz at cool factor for Batman but speed feat for Elektra argument.

Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance"

Also, by the by

For what that's worth 👆

Amanda Waller and her files already labeled Batman as "super human". He can take either Elektra or DD. Speed isn't THAT much of a difference to decide who will win. I feel skill is and Batman is overall more skilled, with SIMILAR stats.

Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.

Originally posted by Smurph
Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.

I'd rank Val far ahead of either and Batman stalemated him. Even surprising him in ariel combat

Originally posted by Smurph
Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance"

Originally posted by Smurph
Also, by the by

For what that's worth 👆

Originally posted by Smurph
Also, by the by

For what that's worth 👆

https://postimg.cc/McJRnYgY
https://postimg.cc/SXL9CMhb
https://postimg.cc/zb0RPYvd

Mind showing the speed of Nefaria's blasts?

Originally posted by Smurph
Elektra has been superhuman for a long time. The Fist upgrade just made it moreso.

Same with Matt.

And I don't think Bruce is more skilled than either. They're all generally peers but she's faster.

Originally posted by Smurph
Unless you want to commit to the position that Batman moves faster than heat vision, your position collapses in on itself.

Try that on for some, uh, "dissonance"

Scaling Bruce's speed off Clark's HV is incredibly silly. The Nefaria showing just shows that everybody has silly feats, but I'm not suggesting Elektra's speed should scale off of it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Daredevil and Elektra are superhuman based on feats. Batman isn't superhuman despite his feats which are better than both because "Do you really think this happened bro".

Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth and take a breath. Seems like your only argument is attacking a poor understanding of what I said.