Originally posted by Smurph
I mean, I don't think the analogy holds, but in any event they're not in the thread.So I return to Elektra Daredevil being faster than Bruce.
Cool. But its not PIS, as he gets his abilities in comics thanks to Bat-Mite watching over him, as shown in canon comics. Just as Guy Gardner gets his abilities thanks to the munificence of Oa.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I don't agree, I do think it's PIS and I don't think there's an analogy between Guy's power source and Bat-Mite intervening as Bruce's guardian. But whether you prefer the No PIS or No Outside Help rule makes no difference here.
Cool. But it's not PIS, as he gets his abilities in comics thanks to Bat-Mite watching over him, as shown in canon comics. Just as Guy Gardner gets his abilities thanks to the munificence of Oa.
But we're not told that Bat-Mite created Bruce or imbued him with all of his strength and skill and intellect. We're just told that Bat-Mite watches over Bruce. He's a guardian imp but he's not Bruce's super soldier serum, is he?
Moreover the idea of Bat-Mite's intervention begs the question of whether this is even a speed feat. Seems equally possible that BM slowed the HV down or adjusted time or let Bruce get hit and then fixed him and adjusted everybody's perception.
I don't feel driven to sort through those because it seems like nothing turns on it. In any event, if the only explanation for the feat not being PIS is "an imp did it" then it still looks like inadmissible plot induced stupidity to me.
😂 he can't.
so the bat side has degenerated to needing the imp? c'mon.... whether it's canon or not it is definitely against the spirit of the thread. no one who ever puts bats in a vs thread relies on the fact that he's being watched over. i mean seriously wt actual f?
so bats reflexes>lightspeed, it's NOT pis, and he can beat anyone below an imp because well, if he's in trouble the imp would just save him. wth is happening here...? beyond the ridiculousness of falling on that, where is the proof that it was the imp helping him move that fast, as opposed to it being straight PIS? and what? we now attribute NOTHING to batman himself but rather we chalk everything up to the imp? that's....utterly ridiculous.
it's also not close to the shazam or oan analogy because we KNOW they are aided by outside sources. but more that IS the source. everything they do is a result of their 'outside' power. is superman aided by the outside because of the sun? with batman we have no clue what the imp has done in terms of his every day feats. he punched and damaged a tree. no longer a bat feat but an imp feat? crazy. you've literally just called into question every feat batman has ever performed 😂
Originally posted by Smurph
lol no, I don't mean to say that. Strawman harder.
Originally posted by leonidas
😂 he can't.so the bat side has degenerated to needing the imp? c'mon.... whether it's canon or not it is definitely against the spirit of the thread. no one who ever puts bats in a vs thread relies on the fact that he's being watched over. i mean seriously wt actual f?
so bats reflexes>lightspeed, it's NOT pis, and he can beat anyone below an imp because well, if he's in trouble the imp would just save him. wth is happening here...? beyond the ridiculousness of falling on that, where is the proof that it was the imp helping him move that fast, as opposed to it being straight PIS? and what? we now attribute NOTHING to batman himself but rather we chalk everything up to the imp? that's....utterly ridiculous.
it's also not close to the shazam or oan analogy because we KNOW they are aided by outside sources. but more that IS the source. everything they do is a result of their 'outside' power. is superman aided by the outside because of the sun? with batman we have no clue what the imp has done in terms of his every day feats. he punched and damaged a tree. no longer a bat feat but an imp feat? crazy. you've literally just called into question every feat batman has ever performed 😂
Originally posted by RadZoa
Its always PIS when it doesn't suit someone argument lolBatman has already blitzed Katana who's way faster than Elektra is
What's to stop Batman from simply blitzing Elektra and breaking her neck? Nothing because Elektra is unimpressive
Does he blitz Slade and break his neck before he could react? Bane? Bronze Tiger? Lady Shiva?
vs Bronze Tiger
vs Cayman...
Originally posted by abhilegendThat's not how burden of proof works.
Why not? Too quick for bullets but no supersonic speed feats? Sounds PIS to me.
By the similar vein, when has Elektra moved supersonic to be shown too quick for bullets?
She was too quick for bullets when she moved after the bullet was fired point blank, deflected it, and said "I'm too quick for bullets". Given how often she's done it, especially recently, it's well established as her combat speed. And given that we know she's gotten magical speed and strength amps recently, there's not even a good narrative basis for your whining.
Elektra doesn't sprint around like Quicksilver. I have no notion of her sprinting speed. It doesn't matter, since combat speed and running speed have little relationship in comics.
Batman, on the other hand, cannot move at speeds nearing lightspeed in a fight... without PIS. I have no doubt that you'll cry otherwise because you can't help yourself when presented with an opportunity to double down on something stupid, but it doesn't change the obvious.
Originally posted by Smurph
That's not how burden of proof works.
It apparently did when Batman dodged heat vision on several occasions.
She was too quick for bullets when she moved after the bullet was fired point blank, deflected it, and said "I'm too quick for bullets". Given how often she's done it, especially recently, it's well established as her combat speed. And given that we know she's gotten magical speed and strength amps recently, there's not even a good narrative basis for your whining.
With all her amps and whatnot, it'd be easy to show her running or moving at supersonic speed which requires her to be faster than bullets.
Elektra doesn't sprint around like Quicksilver. I have no notion of her sprinting speed. It doesn't matter, since combat speed and running speed have little relationship in comics.
No, but you can't be supersonic speed in combat and human level otherwise, that's not how speed works.
Batman, on the other hand, cannot move at speeds nearing lightspeed in a fight... without PIS. I have no doubt that you'll cry otherwise because you can't help yourself when presented with an opportunity to double down on something stupid, but it doesn't change the obvious.
Elektra also can't move at supersonic speeds in a fight by the same logic without PIS. You can't have it both ways.
Originally posted by abhilegendBatman can dodge heat vision, that's not PIS. Streets dodge lasers all the time.
It apparently did when Batman dodged heat vision on several occasions.With all her amps and whatnot, it'd be easy to show her running or moving at supersonic speed which requires her to be faster than bullets.
No, but you can't be supersonic speed in combat and human level otherwise, that's not how speed works.
Elektra also can't move at supersonic speeds in a fight by the same logic without PIS. You can't have it both ways.
Batman moving after the HV was fired, is another story. I've seen him do that on exactly one occasion, so I'm not sure what the "several" others are.
Conversely, I've shown you Elektra repeatedly intercepting point blank gunfire and moving after the bullet is fired. And there are other recent similar feats. The comics keep emphasizing her speed.
There's no "having it both ways". Batman cannot move at speeds comparable to heat vision. Elektra can react within the span of point blank gunfire. There's no contradiction there. Insisting otherwise just comes off as whiny.