Apoc vs Thanos

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You didn't rebute it though. Nowhere in your entire diatribe of technobabbling statements did you refute anything I brought up other than what appeared to be a gigantic middle finger at me and a "No U!!!" statement.

You argue now that you think Thanos is resistant to matter manipulation because he was surviving physical trauma due to concussive, or kinetic forces being applied, which are two completely different damage values, and two completely different means of receiving damage. If what you said was anywhere close to accurate, he'd never have had anything to fear from Storm Breaker, or just about anything else. However, we know this isn't true, as he's had his arm f@cked up by the gauntlet, we've seen Storm breaker pierce his chest and cut off his head, we've seen others harm him, including Tony Stark. We know he's far from invulnerable.

Now, as to your assertion that matter manipulation requires the use of physical force to do it's work, how in the ever loving blue hell can you POSSIBLY assert this? How would you know this? As far as anyone else is aware, it is a [B]MENTAL power Apocalypse uses, not a physical one.

And now, you need to prove that Thanos's atoms are more durable than anyone elses. I do not know how you are supposed to actually prove atomic toughness from a fictional setting, but please, this should be entertaining. [/B]

Thanos isn't immune to all forms of matter manipulation - he's simply resistant to certain levels of it due to his immense durability. Just like he's not immune to all forms of force, but can withstand extreme levels of it. Pointing out instances where he was injured doesn't prove he has zero resistance to all levels of matter manipulation.

You also didn't address the fact that, in fiction, objects and beings have resisted matter manipulation attempts solely because of their high durability. That alone disproves your claim.

Let me ask you a question:
Do you believe Apocalypse could turn the following beings or objects into sand if they simply stood still and let him try?
1. Hela
2. Silver Surfer
3. Captain Marvel (Binary form)
4. Surtur
5. The Destroyer
6. Phoenix
7. Mjolnir
8. Stormbreaker
9. Adamantium
10. Captain America’s shield

^ Most of those are either magic wielders or matter manipulators themselves.

You need to bring up examples of beings with physical defences only. Adamantium and Cap's shield shouldn't be an issue. They have been shaped and manipulated by science.

I thought:

Originally posted by h1a8
The burden of proof lies on proving it is significantly more durable than manmade or earthly formed materials. Special attributes must be proven or they don't exist.

So Thanos' resistance to matter manip should be proven, or it does not exist. Does not matter what OTHER objects in fiction can or cannot do, the burden of proof is on h1 to prove it for THANOS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos is not the most powerful being in the universe, especially based off later movies introducing more powerful characters (SW, etc). I never claimed such. But such a claim in a movie gives evidence to Thanos being extremely physically powerful.

Ni...Muth...Homeslice. 😐 . Do you not realize how you are contradicting yourself from sentence to SENTENCE?!!! You say "you haven't claimed as such" when bringing up the quote IS THE PHUCKING CLAIM, and AGAIN, you say it "gives evidence for Thanos's power" when that quote was SPECIFICALLY made because HE HAD THE INFINITY STONES. THE INFINITY STONES MADE HIM THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN THE UNIVERSE. NOT HIS OWN PHYSICAL POWER.

Again, I don't even know if we have any feats with him without the Gauntlet because when he fought the Hulk, he already had the Power Gem, and the Hulk was literally in a fight with a being way stronger than Thanos, i.e. Surtur, without getting scared enough to disappear for the whole film, which leads me to believe that Thanos used the Power Gem to beat up the Hulk as only the force from a planet-destroying substance such as the Power Gem would be enough to scare the Hulk when another planet destroyer, again Surtur, did not.

Obviously this is open to interpretation and I know there are some who will argue that Thanos didn't activate the Power Gem and that he used his own brute strength to beat down the Hulk, although I don't believe that for my reasons stated above. If anyone wants to debate whether Thanos used the IG to beat the Hulk or not, they can do so whenever they please. REGARDLESS, Thanos' strength and durability play ZERO FACTOR here because of Apocalypses' telekinesis.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't see Apoc starting the fight by lifting Thanos into the air and holding him there indefinitely, that's completely out of character. He doesn't need to be stupid to avoid doing that.

He'd more likely begin by defending against Thanos' attacks using telekinesis, blocking blows, sending Thanos flying, and so on. At some point during the fight, he may attempt matter manipulation.

It's amazing how people assume a character is stupid just because they don't act exactly how they would.

Okay, be specific. Describe a typical scenario, other than matter manipulating Thanos, where Apoc wins the fight. Let's start from there.

Dude, come on 🙄 . So you're basically saying that instead of instantly using his telekinesis to slam Thanos against a wall and then transmuting him into said wall, which is completely in character and pretty much his signature tactic , he's going to stand there like a bumbling idiot waiting for Thanos to attack him and then use telekinesis to "block his blows". Why would he need to be on the defense when he
A. Has telekinesis which basically means Thanos can't touch him
B. Has teleportation meaning that the moment Thanos launches an attack, he can move out of way effortlessly
C. Has supersonic reflexes that will basically allow him to anticipate Thanos' attack before he has time to implement it.

Lastly, a "typical" scenario without matter manipulation where Apoc wins the fight? Sure. He holds Thanos in place with TK and then shoves multiple metric tons worth of dirt into all of Thanos' orifices until he suffocates. Or he BFRs Thanos into the vacuum of space. Or he uses his TK to lift a gargantuan city-sized amount of landmass from the Earth, telekinetically places Thanos into the crevice, and then slams the landmass into him at Chicxulub Meteor speed. There's many scenarios where Apoc massacres Thanos. Without the matter manipulation 🙂

Originally posted by h1a8
Okay, be specific. Describe a typical scenario, other than matter manipulating Thanos, where Apoc wins the fight. Let's start from there.

So nerf Apoc for your argument. Ok.

Insert Apoc instead of Wanda. See how powerless Thanos was?

YouTube video

Originally posted by tkitna
So nerf Apoc for your argument. Ok.

Insert Apoc instead of Wanda. See how powerless Thanos was?

YouTube video

So Apoc holds Thanos airborne while attempting to crush him?

Originally posted by Lestov16

Ni...Muth...Homeslice. 😐 . Do you not realize how you are contradicting yourself [b]from sentence to SENTENCE?!!! You say "you haven't claimed as such" when bringing up the quote IS THE PHUCKING CLAIM, and AGAIN, you say it "gives evidence for Thanos's power" when that quote was SPECIFICALLY made because HE HAD THE INFINITY STONES. THE INFINITY STONES MADE HIM THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN THE UNIVERSE. NOT HIS OWN PHYSICAL POWER.

Again, I don't even know if we have any feats with him without the Gauntlet because when he fought the Hulk, he already had the Power Gem, and the Hulk was literally in a fight with a being way stronger than Thanos, i.e. Surtur, without getting scared enough to disappear for the whole film, which leads me to believe that Thanos used the Power Gem to beat up the Hulk as only the force from a planet-destroying substance such as the Power Gem would be enough to scare the Hulk when another planet destroyer, again Surtur, did not.

Obviously this is open to interpretation and I know there are some who will argue that Thanos didn't activate the Power Gem and that he used his own brute strength to beat down the Hulk, although I don't believe that for my reasons stated above. If anyone wants to debate whether Thanos used the IG to beat the Hulk or not, they can do so whenever they please. REGARDLESS, Thanos' strength and durability play ZERO FACTOR here because of Apocalypses' telekinesis.

Dude, come on 🙄 . So you're basically saying that instead of instantly using his telekinesis to slam Thanos against a wall and then transmuting him into said wall, which is completely in character and pretty much his signature tactic , he's going to stand there like a bumbling idiot waiting for Thanos to attack him and then use telekinesis to "block his blows". Why would he need to be on the defense when he
A. Has telekinesis which basically means Thanos can't touch him
B. Has teleportation meaning that the moment Thanos launches an attack, he can move out of way effortlessly
C. Has supersonic reflexes that will basically allow him to anticipate Thanos' attack before he has time to implement it.

Lastly, a "typical" scenario without matter manipulation where Apoc wins the fight? Sure. He holds Thanos in place with TK and then shoves multiple metric tons worth of dirt into all of Thanos' orifices until he suffocates. Or he BFRs Thanos into the vacuum of space. Or he uses his TK to lift a gargantuan city-sized amount of landmass from the Earth, telekinetically places Thanos into the crevice, and then slams the landmass into him at Chicxulub Meteor speed. There's many scenarios where Apoc massacres Thanos. Without the matter manipulation 🙂 [/B]

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll keep it short and to the point. If a reputable character in a film calls someone the most powerful being in the universe, that alone implies they're extremely powerful.

The Russo Brothers confirmed in an interview that Thanos didn't use the gems when fighting Hulk—and even without that, there's no evidence across the films that the stones enhance physical strength or durability.

Apocalypse isn't particularly fast. Thanos could potentially initiate an attack before Apoc activates his tk, it just depends on their starting distance.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought:

So Thanos' resistance to matter manip should be proven, or it does not exist. Does not matter what OTHER objects in fiction can or cannot do, the burden of proof is on h1 to prove it for THANOS.

Thanos' ability to resist matter manipulation is based on his durability feats; he can only be affected by manipulators capable of altering materials as durable as, or more durable than, his own body.

So Apoc holds Thanos airborne while attempting to crush him?

Yes

there's no evidence across the films that the stones enhance physical strength or durability.

His encounter with Captain Marvel isn't evidence?

Apocalypse isn't particularly fast. Thanos could potentially initiate an attack before Apoc activates his tk, it just depends on their starting distance.

Apoc dealt with Quicksilver to the point that he was perceiving him in slow motion. Who has Thanos ever dealt with on that speed level?

Originally posted by h1a8
So Apoc holds Thanos airborne while attempting to crush him?

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll keep it short and to the point. If a reputable character in a film calls someone the most powerful being in the universe, that alone implies they're extremely powerful.

The Russo Brothers confirmed in an interview that Thanos didn't use the gems when fighting Hulk—and even without that, there's no evidence across the films that the stones enhance physical strength or durability.

Apocalypse isn't particularly fast. Thanos could potentially initiate an attack before Apoc activates his tk, it just depends on their starting distance.

Thanos' ability to resist matter manipulation is based on his durability feats; he can only be affected by manipulators capable of altering materials as durable as, or more durable than, his own body.

But you are claiming a special attribute for Thanos, that he is resistant to matter manipulation. I (and others) are claiming that Thanos is not special, his matter is no more resistant to matter manipulation. If you don't have proof, then....you don't.

Originally posted by h1a8
So Apoc holds Thanos airborne while attempting to crush him?

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll keep it short and to the point. If a reputable character in a film calls someone the most powerful being in the universe, that alone implies they're extremely powerful.

The Russo Brothers confirmed in an interview that Thanos didn't use the gems when fighting Hulk—and even without that, there's no evidence across the films that the stones enhance physical strength or durability.

Apocalypse isn't particularly fast. Thanos could potentially initiate an attack before Apoc activates his tk, it just depends on their starting distance.

Thanos' ability to resist matter manipulation is based on his durability feats; he can only be affected by manipulators capable of altering materials as durable as, or more durable than, his own body.

Ronan The Accuser was obviously physically enhanced with the Power Stone. Not only did he survive a shot from the Hadron Enforcer, which Rocket said had enough power to blow up a moon, He then got plowed into by the Milano and was just fine. Ronan is a Kree, same as Yon-Rog, same as Dar-Bin, same as Korath. He was one of the strongest, but no Kree is that powerful.

Oh Jeez we still on this most powerful being in the Universe schtick. It was Bruce's opinion. End of.

This is the same guy who dismisses Eitri's statement on Thor taking the full force of a Star, in the same damn movie. A subject that Eitri clearly knows much better than Bruce knows on how comparatively powerful Thanos is with the Power and Space stones.

Wow, that's a lot of text. I'll keep it short and to the point. If a reputable character in a film calls someone the most powerful being in the universe, that alone implies they're extremely powerful.

The Russo Brothers confirmed in an interview that Thanos didn't use the gems when fighting Hulk—and even without that, there's no evidence across the films that the stones enhance physical strength or durability.

Apocalypse isn't particularly fast. Thanos could potentially initiate an attack before Apoc activates his tk, it just depends on their starting distance.

That literally is not a lot of text. I've written college essays in a half hour that are shorter than that, not to mention I separated it into paragraphs to make it more palatable and each paragraph covers a different subject. You would have to have a beneath second-grader literacy level and attention span to find that post difficult to read.

Now for your bullshyt post itself. You're literally taking the quote out of context to fit your own nonsense interpretation. The quote literally goes: "He has the POWER AND SPACE STONES, that already makes him the most powerful creature in the universe!"". He is only being called that BECAUSE OF THE STONES. You saying "that alone validates the implication" is blatant misrepresentation to fit your own desperate narrative.

I know people will use the Russo Brothers' explanation as fact and I guess they do have right to do so as they were the directors of the film. Again, I've outlined why I believe that onscreen events directly contradict their statements and there is a counterargument to made that authorial intent does equate to indisputable canon. Again, the entire topic is irrelevant here and should be debated in another thread dedicated to it..As has been proven by myself and other posters here, Apoc's TK negates Thanos' strength and durability in this encounter, so it's overall a moot point.

WTF do you mean he's not particularly fast? He literally countered attacks from Quicksilver, who is way beyond hypersonic speed. Unless the starting distance is so close that it practically counts as copulation, Apoc's TK is going to nullify whatever attack Thanos tries to muster.

Originally posted by KingD19
Ronan The Accuser was obviously physically enhanced with the Power Stone. Not only did he survive a shot from the Hadron Enforcer, which Rocket said had enough power to blow up a moon, He then got plowed into by the Milano and was just fine. Ronan is a Kree, same as Yon-Rog, same as Dar-Bin, same as Korath. He was one of the strongest, but no Kree is that powerful.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh Jeez we still on this most powerful being in the Universe schtick. It was Bruce's opinion. End of.

This is the same guy who dismisses Eitri's statement on Thor taking the full force of a Star, in the same damn movie. A subject that Eitri clearly knows much better than Bruce knows on how comparatively powerful Thanos is with the Power and Space stones.

1,000,000 👆 to both of these posts. IDKWTF h1a8 is trying to suggest here. He's going for every desperate tactic from massively overhyping Thanos to mentally gimping Apoc to give Thanos a chance here and it's hysterically ridiculous.
.

^EDIT: "authorial intent DOES NOT equate to indisputable canon"

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you are claiming a special attribute for Thanos, that he is resistant to matter manipulation. I (and others) are claiming that Thanos is not special, his matter is no more resistant to matter manipulation. If you don't have proof, then....you don't.

Thanos' level of durability proves that he possesses a special attribute: resistance to matter manipulators who can only manipulate materials less durable than he is.

Matter manipulation exists on a spectrum of power levels. More powerful users can manipulate more durable materials than weaker ones. Just because Character A turned adamantium into air doesn't mean Character B - who's only shown turning paper into air - can do the same. Claiming that Character B can manipulate anything more durable than paper, including Thanos, is claiming a special attribute.

Originally posted by Lestov16

That literally is not a lot of text. I've written college essays in a half hour that are shorter than that, not to mention I separated it into paragraphs to make it more palatable and each paragraph covers a different subject. You would have to have a beneath second-grader literacy level and attention span to find that post difficult to read.

Now for your bullshyt post itself. You're literally taking the quote out of context to fit your own nonsense interpretation. The quote literally goes: "He has the POWER AND SPACE STONES, that already makes him the most powerful creature in the universe!"". He is only being called that BECAUSE OF THE STONES. You saying "that alone validates the implication" is blatant misrepresentation to fit your own desperate narrative.

I know people will use the Russo Brothers' explanation as fact and I guess they do have right to do so as they were the directors of the film. Again, I've outlined why I believe that onscreen events directly contradict their statements and there is a counterargument to made that authorial intent does equate to indisputable canon. Again, the entire topic is irrelevant here and should be debated in another thread dedicated to it..As has been proven by myself and other posters here, Apoc's TK negates Thanos' strength and durability in this encounter, so it's overall a moot point.

WTF do you mean he's not particularly fast? He literally countered attacks from Quicksilver, who is way beyond hypersonic speed. Unless the starting distance is so close that it practically counts as copulation, Apoc's TK is going to nullify whatever attack Thanos tries to muster.

1,000,000 👆 to both of these posts. IDKWTF h1a8 is trying to suggest here. He's going for every desperate tactic from massively overhyping Thanos to mentally gimping Apoc to give Thanos a chance here and it's hysterically ridiculous.
.

So we agree that there was no attempt by the creative team to show Thanos being physically amplified by the Stone? In fact, you're falsely equating the comic version of the Gems with the MCU Stones.

After being statued and struck multiple times, Apoc had to adapt to QS level of speed. He didn't start at that level of perception, or he wouldn't have been statued for so long. Regardless, the OP forbids any speedup shenanigans from Apoc and both fight at their natural normal speeds.

Do you see how concise that was?

Originally posted by KingD19
Ronan The Accuser was obviously physically enhanced with the Power Stone. Not only did he survive a shot from the Hadron Enforcer, which Rocket said had enough power to blow up a moon, He then got plowed into by the Milano and was just fine. Ronan is a Kree, same as Yon-Rog, same as Dar-Bin, same as Korath. He was one of the strongest, but no Kree is that powerful.

Why is Ronan significantly physically more powerful than the other Kree? Well, it can be multiple possible reasons. For instance, in comics, he underwent biological enhancements to increase his strength, durability, and stamina above normal Kree levels.

Originally posted by tkitna
His encounter with Captain Marvel isn't evidence?

Apoc dealt with Quicksilver to the point that he was perceiving him in slow motion. Who has Thanos ever dealt with on that speed level?

After being statued and struck multiple times, Apoc had to adapt to QS level of speed. He didn't start at that level of perception, or he wouldn't have been statued for so long. Regardless, the OP forbids any speedup shenanigans from Apoc and both fight at their natural normal speeds.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos' level of durability proves that he possesses a special attribute: resistance to matter manipulators who can only manipulate materials less durable than he is.

This is your claim, which you need to prove, though. That his resistance to attacks like punches etc equates to matter manipulation resistance.

Originally posted by h1a8
"A lot of text" implies your inability to be concise and to the point.

So we agree that there was no attempt by the creative team to show Thanos being physically amplified by the Stone? In fact, you're falsely equating the comic version of the Gems with the MCU Stones.

After being statued and struck multiple times, Apoc had to adapt to QS level of speed. He didn't start at that level of perception, or he wouldn't have been statued for so long. Regardless, the OP forbids any speedup shenanigans from Apoc and both fight at their natural normal speeds.

Do you see how concise that was?

I was referring to Ronan before he obtained the Power Stone. He treated Drax like a child and even held the Power Stone in his hand without dying.

Why is Ronan significantly physically more powerful than the other Kree? Well, it can be multiple possible reasons. For instance, in comics, he underwent biological enhancements to increase his strength, durability, and stamina above normal Kree levels.

After being statued and struck multiple times, Apoc had to adapt to QS level of speed. He didn't start at that level of perception, or he wouldn't have been statued for so long. Regardless, the OP forbids any speedup shenanigans from Apoc and both fight at their natural normal speeds.

OP just means Apoc is limited to moving at his 'normal' (whatever that is) speeds.

But it says nothing about his perceptions. He'll be seeing Thanos' moves in extreme slow motion (relative to him), and will be able to react accordingly. Of course, his own physical movements will be at 'normal' (whatever that means) speeds, If I see a punch moving sloooooowly at my face, I can move out of the way at my usual speeds in good time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...his resistance to attacks like punches etc equates to matter manipulation resistance against those who CAN NOT manipulate more durable objects than him.

^ This is more correct.

It is also a special attribute that must be proven if a being shown to manipulate paper can also manipulate steel or anything else more durable. The same standard you apply to my argument applies to your argument as well.

Originally posted by 9jaboy
Hey I don't get it. Help me out here, Are you saying Apoc would crush Thanos without much trouble or is there something I'm missing here?

He can keep him away though as I said earlier.

Originally posted by tkitna
That's what I said. Your not missing anything. There is no possible way for Thanos to win. Apoc can suspend him helplessly, has force fields that Magneto couldn't even breach, and has powers of matter manipulation among others. Eventuallt Thanos falls. There is no way Thanos can win.

Magneto lol. You mean hurling metal scraps at his shields? Lol

Well there's a way, if he gets in close. I already stated Apoc could keep him away via TK.

Originally posted by h1a8

I was referring to Ronan before he obtained the Power Stone. He treated Drax like a child and even held the Power Stone in his hand without dying.

Why is Ronan significantly physically more powerful than the other Kree? Well, it can be multiple possible reasons. For instance, in comics, he underwent biological enhancements to increase his strength, durability, and stamina above normal Kree levels.

The only feat we have from Ronan before he obtains the stone is beating up a sloppy drunk Drax and holding the Power Stone. Afterwards is when he gets most of his feats, including getting rammed into by the Milano going full speed and all the rubble it brought with it, as well as the Hadron Enforcer shot which could destroy a moon.

Ronan being the strongest of the Kree doesn't matter much since we know for a fact the things he does are powered by the stone. His comic origins don't matter. We know even powerhouses in the MCU wouldn't be able to survive something that could blow up a moon. And yet, we've seen Thanos and Eson display the ability to destroy a celestial body and survive it's destruction(in Eson's case) while powered by the stone. No Kree could take that, not even the best normal one.