Best evidence that Neo's phone call happens at the end of Revolutions.......

Originally posted by Metamorphisis
AS for the Architect and the Source. The Architect himself is not the source, he is but a program of which designed the matrix, he is the source of the matrix, AND, this taken into context, is not inside the matrix because you would have this paradox: Which came first the chicken or the egg? -- If the Architect was inside of the matrix, he could not have programmed the first versions of the matrix, he only interacts with it as do we with our computer systems. Neo's code is already out of the matrix at this point then, but needs to complete the process by, excuse the poor metaphor, "rebooting" the system.

Grammatically the architect is talking about "The One's" function in a third person sense, stating that:

The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix.

Another way to say this, in a less proper standard english would be:

Your is now to return here, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry from the matrix and reinserting the prime program. After which you are required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix.

Because he did not walk through the door on the left, the system changes that needed this "reboot" did not take effect, hindering performance of the matrix mind you, and thus did not come to select the 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. Now the machines are on their way to destroy Zion, and there is the possibility of a cataclysmic disaster when the anomaly reoccurs inside the matrix, if Neo's presence doesn't destroy it first.
[/B]

You are still talking with fuzzy logic.. The idea that the Architect cannot enter his own creation is ridiculous. He's made it, it is there, he can enter it if he likes. That should be obvious and there is no logical problem.

Secondly, no mater how much you tak about grammar, you cannot ignore- though you tried- the quote I posted.

"The door to your right leads TO THE SOURCE, and the salvation of Zion."

A door cannot lead TO what you are already in!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
"The door to your right leads TO THE SOURCE, and the salvation of Zion."

A door cannot lead TO what you are already in!

I agree. If I was inside my local supermarket, and someone said, "that door leads to the supermarket" I would look at him a little funny.

Neo did not enter the Source. He got close. Maybe something touched in a small way, but there was no connection with the Source. My guess is that happens in M3. Probably the scene of Neo walking down the gold hallway and the one where the light is coming out of or into Neo.

Besides, Neo has his stapler.

Ushgarak

First, I'm just curious why you feel you have to try to prove me wrong, when I am only bringing up my theory on the situation? I don't want to get into a pissing contest! I'm just here to express my take on the movie. You're most likely not going to change my thoughts - I'm just contributing them with open-minded and like minded people.

Second, the architect can interface with the matrix, much the same way I interface with my own version of the unix system that I have compiled on one of my computers. So he can, indeed, enter the matrix, but he cannot reprogram the matrix while he is inside. I believe that when he speaks to Neo, they are both outside of the matrix, however they are still in the construct of the matrix. Is that clear enough?

Thirdly, the architect is not the program source code, but he is it's creator - it's source, in that sense. Still, as that, he is but a link in the chain. If you think of the matrix as a unix server on the internet, everyone plugged into the matrix over the network are at a basic user level access. They cannot interact with the matrix other than what it was intended for. Neo, for whatever reason, "hacked" the matrix like a hacker would the unix server (ie: telnetting to a system port and running a buffer overflow to crash and restart the port to obtain superuser permissions). However, just as a hacker would not have immediate root access - but rather superuser permissions inside a shell access - neither does Neo - but his during his conversation with the architect you need to realize that his not in the matrix anymore, but a sub-level of the system - the Construct. If he were to have gone through the door to the right, to the "source" and to the salvation of Zion, he would only have been given root access of the machine mainframe. The movie designed this as if it were a real system, and has the same properties of a system.

Neo's choice to go to the left door only took him right back to the matrix "shell" access, perhaps to find another means to gain "root" access. However, it is possible that since Neo left the actual matrix, and was in the raw construct of the matrix to converse with the architect - that he was inadvertently granted higher access permissions which lead to the problem of choice. What happens if "the One" chooses the left door and we have now given him stronger user rights/permissions? I think this is why the architect has the entire conversation with Neo in the first place. He is, in effect, attempting to appeal to the general love of our species as a form of control, with a one or two percent probability that someone would risk the entire species over one person.

So my answer is, the door only leads you out of shell access with root privileges in the machine mainframe, to true root access - whereabout you would have full functionality of the matrix as if you were the architect. I did not try to fuzzy logic this, or grammatically side step you. There's nothing fuzzy about this. The architect program resides at the root of the mainframe, and he can access the shell construct and even the matrix itself to interface with. He cannot change the matrix while he is running it himself though. Just as a unix server can make changes from root while running without affecting network users, so can the architect with the matrix, and just as the unix server, you cannot be making process calls from a shell on your machine when those changes are implemented.

We can go on about this all day - you still skipped my point: The phone call at the end of M1 was not to the architect.

tshirt

I apologize, but I had not referred to the architect as the "source" (the machine mainframe as stated in Neo's conversation with the oracle), but he did design it, and thus was the source of it's creation. Perhaps I had not made myself completely clear on this point. Please read my last post as to how I have in visioned the system to be set up.

I just feel Ushgarak has just been trying to change what I expressed as an opinion and possible solution to the puzzle into something that I expressed as fact and then prove me wrong. It started with the number of people who Neo would have to choose (23 is the correct number not 27 as I misquoted - I admit it!!). However I was only trying to point out that for reasons of placement, and certain events, I did not believe that the phone call would have been to the architect as I stated to Mist and The Unknown - and then I replied to AliasNeo15, where I made some mistakes in the details but my point never changed. That would be where we're at now, since Ushgarak has been hounding me since.

But I don't mind 😄 I like a good debate, and I know I can sometimes be sloppy with my type 😛

Neo HAS touched the Source. The Oracle says as much in ENTER THE MATRIX. And it’s the reason for Neo being in a coma.
“His mind touched the Source and got separated. Now he’s in a place between this world and your world.” (Something along those lines).
But he has never entered the Source. Perhaps he touched it walking through the door to the Architects room, who knows?

I agree with metamorphisis, that the Architects room need not be in the ACTUAL Matrix program (just as the rebels’ Construct, and possibly Mobil Ave are sub-programs or connected programs). However, in Reloaded Neo has his powers in the programmer backdoor corridor, which is not really connected to the Matrix either.

The idea, that it’s visiting this place that gives Neo super-access is interesting. And it’s new at least 🙂

Neo’s obviously making the infamous phone-call from WITHIN the Matrix. Now, with that in place let’s take the following into account.
When the first movie was shot, no one dreamed of sequels. The end of M1 IS the end of M1. The scene is set, the One is ready, and speaks to all of us, while he dares the machines. Cool open ending. The fight is won, the war has just begun.
Note the time this call happens, please.
Then at the time, when ETM starts (max a day before Reloaded). The phone-call happens JUST before Reloaded.

omega> now, you could have split that into 3 posts and made it readable ..but... oh well, im gunna have 2 pass

Omega> an idea ive been formulating is that the Archies room IS the source, but Neo must be given the choice to enter it, willingly, knowing what is goign to happen...its like, when the camera pans into the screens, we move INTO the choice Neo makes, Neo opening the door would be, essentially, allowing the cycle to be restarted...just an idea...

Originally posted by Metamorphisis
[b]Ushgarak

First, I'm just curious why you feel you have to try to prove me wrong, when I am only bringing up my theory on the situation? I don't want to get into a pissing contest! I'm just here to express my take on the movie. You're most likely not going to change my thoughts - I'm just contributing them with open-minded and like minded people. [/B]

No, you simply posted correcting others yet made significiant mistakes yourself. That is all the justification I needed to point out those mistakes to you, and others.

Just about everything else you posted- including that post- is pretty irrelevant to me in regard to that. And you stating that Neo was in the Source- complete with utterly erroneous attempt to quote from the Architect- had to be pointed out for the error it was.

Also, no matter what you say, your responses to me have been ridden with bad logic. Like your attempt above to translate the Architect's quote

"The function of the One is now to return to the source "

as

"Your [function] is now to return here"

No! NOT here! As the Architect specifies, the Source is through the door on the right! All your posting about access and roots is, I am sorry to say, just a massive obfuscation to try and conceal that error. Your theory is itneresting but not relevant to that specific point. It could not be any simpler. Neo is not in the Source. If he went through that door, he would be. And that is all there is to it.

You say:

"Neo did visit the source, the architect was the source!"

and then

"But I had not referred to the architect as the "source"

You then try and change gear but it will do you no good. You are at least misleading and, in actuality, simply mistaken.

Just check your facts more carefully before posting correcting others. Your final opinion about the subject was not what I was referring to.

And that, btw, is an end to it. I do not want another huge post where you try and justifiy it again. You made mistakes, that is it. You may or may not be right about the phone call but you still posted several major errors; I will not see theis thread further distracted as you try and say otherwise again.

Does anyone have any useful commentary to make on the exact subject of the tread?

Originally posted by Metamorphisis
[b]tshirt

I apologize, but I had not referred to the architect as the "source" (the machine mainframe as stated in Neo's conversation with the oracle), but he did design it, and thus was the source of it's creation. Perhaps I had not made myself completely clear on this point. Please read my last post as to how I have in visioned the system to be set up. [/B]

No biggie.

[b]
...It started with the number of people who Neo would have to choose (23 is the correct number not 27 as I misquoted - I admit it!!)....
But I don't mind 😄 I like a good debate, and I know I can sometimes be sloppy with my type 😛

I don't car about the number. Your anoalagy above is pretty good.
And a good debate is all I am looking for.

JediHDM: i dont think the Arch's room is "THE source" i think that Neo and the crew THOUGHT it was the source, but truly isnt. In the trailers for Teh Rev, it appears that Neo actually doesnt travel to the source. When he's talking to the Oracle, she tells him he needs to "...return to the source, but first you ned the Keymaker..." he got the Keymaker and was sidetracked, but NOW he will go to the source.

in my opinion, i dont think Neo is even the ONE cus he cant remake the matrix as he sees fit, also said by Morpheus, but then again, the Oracle prophesized something that was untrue, so u never know wut happens.

what was untrue about what she prophesized?

People- topic. Or I close. This thread is too big and unwieldly as it is, over 100 posts- topic or nothing.

Ushgarak

I have only gone into much deeper detail with you on the subject that was in my first posts, one of which you have only corrected my mistake in the numbers and details that did not deal with my point. I apologize for sloppiness on my behalf of the minuscule details. Now let's let it go.

The Omega

I had not heard that comment about his mind touching the source, I have actually not had time to play Enter The Matrix, but it's interesting to hear and, I feel, it only solidifies my point! Thanx for the support! I am only trying to look at it from a knowledge of advanced computer systems, since this is what we are dealing with, and it is what I do for a living. 😄

Jedi

Interesting thought. Works with what I was trying to say, yet it's different. I like it. 🙂 So Neo's choice, that we see in the monitors, and through his choice in the which door, is the process call for how the programs respond and restart the current cycle? Am I following you on that?

well, i think Omega pretty much summed up the fact that Matrix ends before reloaded begins, so...

Yeah, I would be willing to take that as muchly the end of it as well. Are there more useful comments?

meta> something like that, except they can only restart the current cycle by Neo entering the "right" door, or so we are led to believe...

and yes, i think that would be the end.

Hey, what did I just say about topic... you can start a new thread for that kind of talk!

ok, ok, consider a new topic started...and close this one, its done been finished.

now im being the devils advocate to myself, like an idiot:

In the end of the Matrix, look at Neo's clothes. Then look at the clothes he is wearing in the teaser at the end of Reloaded. They are identical. He has a black tie and the same everything. I didnt see all the clothes on him, but just the top, and now im kinda thinkin that way✅