Originally posted by Southern_Rebel
Well, there are still paradoxes...that, I guess, really can't be answered. Marvel today consists of the multiverse that existed before Secret Wars...and the former Beyond Realm....which wasn't part of the Marvel omniverse before Secret Wars. If the HOTI was able to affect ALL of this area recently....would the HOTI have been able to work successfully against this same AREA(Beyond Realm plus the mainstream Marvel multiverse) if the HOTI was to be used against the Beyonder during Secret Wars? The TOAA would not have had jurisdiction, technically speaking, over the Beyond Realm prior to Secret Wars because it wasn't part of Marvel.Now, I understand that the TOAA wrote the comic book...and it would have been part of his creation in the REAL WORLD...but, on panel, the TOAA wouldn't have governed such a territory supposedly. So, would the HOTI have been limited in scope if it was used during the Secret Wars? When Thanos used it more recently...he became ALL with the COSMOS(former Beyond Realm plus the original Marvel Multiverse). If Thanos would have used it back then...he would've only been ALL with an Infinitely smaller portion of time and space(the original Marvel Multiverse minus the Beyond Realm). So, I guess my question is...since the Marvel Omniverse was so much SMALLER back then(a drop of water to the Beyonder's Ocean)....would the HOTI be even as powerful as it would be today?
On the same token...the LT is an omnipresent and virtually omnipotent being within ALL of Marvel. Since Secret Wars...the LT's omnipresence and omnipotence has grown to consume the former Beyond Realm as well....making the LT...seemingly more powerful. This is why I say that the LT would be more powerful than the pre-retcon Molecule Man.
I might be just thinking too hard...but the more I think about it...the more paradoxes I see.
This is the thing though that I was trying to get across before.
During Classic Beyonder's era, Marvel was just an infinite Multiverse.
Marvel is now an infinite amount of infinite MultiverseS,
there's no denying this, Galan and I proved this conclusively.
He found a great clip of the Writers themselves (in a comic) making this clarification,
I found On Panel evidence that corroborates this claim.
This is the catch though.
The ONLY Multiverse that contains the Cosmic Hierarchy of power,
(LT/Eternity/Watchers etc)
is the Prime Multiverse, that's the same infinite Multiverse of Beyonder's era.
There is literally NO uber Cosmics of consequence outside the Prime Multiverse,
with the exception of the Masters of the Matrix,
the Masters of the Matrix are located outside the Multiverse,
and they are Multiversal beings (5 members) but they are intrinsically connected to the Prime Multiverse,
for their job is to protect the blueprints of the Prime Multiverse.
That's it.
The Cosmic hierarchy has basically stayed the same, since 1985,
the only additons, in terms of Abstract Concepts given status in the hierarchy are,
Entropy, Abraxas, (not part of it, but he is part of Eternity)
Infinity (half of Eternity sortaspeak)
and Stranger, Galactus and Celestials who are also part of the gang now.
Other than that, all those infinite Multiverses outside the Prime Multiverse,
are consciousless expansions of Space-Time.
(meaning, an infinite amount of Multiversal Eternitys will not come to battle,
in fact, only the SAME single Infinite Prime Multiversal Eternity will be there,
ready to defend Marvel)
This is why,
suggesting that the LT is more powerful,
based on the infinite amount of MultiverseS NOW in Marvel,
is really inconsequential.
Because those Multiverses have NO Multiversal embodiments of ANY kind,
and they don't even have any uber entities/beings that can help out.
Everything uber in Marvel is STILL to this day,
concentrated withIN the Prime Multiverse (just like back in 1985)
So the LT is an Omniversal entity now, we know this,
the LT > all of Marvel.
But the LT's main objective, his priority is the Prime Multiverse,
cause that's where all the action is. (same as in 1985)
.........................................................
Now the flip side of the coin.
Classic Beyonder created an infinite Multiverse that was an Ocean,
while the SAME Prime Multiverse of today, was just a drop of water in comparison.
The same Prime Multiverse, where all the Cosmic power of Marvel is concentrated.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Hey, just want to point something out. Thanos w/ THOTU was one with EVERYTHING in existence.Beyonder on the other hand was one with the Beyond realm, but NOT with the marvel multiverse.
Therefore, THOTU has a greater scope.
The Beyond Realm was disconnected from Marvel,
while everything is connected to the same source now, 616.
So making that comparison really isn't fair K.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Infinitely bigger, and completely disconnected.This sounds ridiculous,
but it was like another company.
that's the best way I can differentiate the two.
According to Shooter's explanation.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Makes sense but I have to disagree good friend.The Beyond Realm was disconnected from Marvel,
while everything is connected to the same source now, 616.So making that comparison really isn't fair K.
Beyonder=Incomplete control of marvel, Thanos=Complete control of Marvel.
.......................................................................................
The Cosmics in 1984, during the Secret Wars 1 series:
.......................................................................................
From left to right, the Watcher presents the Cosmics
Gardner
TOAA ( Celestial)
Master Hate (black figure with tentacles)
Chronos
Mistress Love (purple/maroon patch of energy)
Eternity
Lord Chaos
Living Tribunal
Master Order
And the In-Betweener is at the bottom speaking.
Mephisto is also there with Death at the bottom right.
.......................................................................................
The Cosmics in 1991, from the Infinity Gauntlet series:
.......................................................................................
From left to right:
Master Hate
Lord Chaos above
Chronos
TOAA (Celestial)
Mephisto (not a cosmic) & Eon are infront of TOAA
Galactus
Another Celestial
Stranger
Master Order above
Mistress Love
Eternity joins the group shortly after.
LT didn't get involved.
.......................................................................................
The Cosmics in 1998, from what if Impossible Man had the IG:
What ifs are kaka, but they are wannabee copies of 616.
.......................................................................................
From left to right:
That other Celestial again
Stranger
Master Order
TOAA (Celestial)
Lord Chaos
Chronos
Epoch, who took over Eon's status
Mistress Love
Eternity behind her
Master Hate
the Watcher
Galactus
.......................................................................................
The Cosmics in 2006, from Last Planet Standing:
.......................................................................................
From the top, clockwise:
The Collector
Living Tribunal
In-Betweener
Stranger
Shaper of Worlds
Lord Chaos
Master Order
The Gardner
.......................................................................................
Basically the same yall.
Originally posted by King KandyWell as a marvel employ,
Jim Shooter cannot make a character who does not come from Marvel.
He just does not have that ability, it is impossible.
The Marvel Universe in 1984-85 was the infinite Multiverse,
the Beyond Realm was completely separated from it,
yes of course they were from the same company.
But I think Shooter was just making the Beyond Realm completely unique,
which is why he made it seem as though it was disconnected,
yet obviously not in the literal sense.
Originally posted by King KandyAgain, it was impossible for Beyonder to be both,Well the difference is that the Beyond realm doesn't exist now,
it's part of the omniverse. Marvel as a whole has gotten no smaller.Beyonder=Incomplete control of marvel, Thanos=Complete control of Marvel.
Beyonder was a "god" unto himself,
and didn't need 616 expanding into somthing greater to give him life,
Beyonder was always there.
The Beyonder discovered "our Universe" the Prime Multiverse,
like when scientist first discovered Prameciums,
swimming in a drop of water thorugh a micro-scope.
Literally, Shooter's explanation.
Originally posted by King KandyOkay? That's pretty neat and all, but what does it have to do with the topic?
Summarized:
the Prime Multiverse of today,
is the ONLY Multiverse with Cosmic hierarchal power,
just like back in 1985.
So all the Multiverses you can think of won't make a difference,
cause none of them have embodiments of any kind,
none of them have Cosmics of any kind,
in fact, ONLY the Prime Multiverse has the hierarchy of power,
just like back in 1985.
So now, like then (1985)
the only Multiverse of consequence is the Prime Multiverse.
And Beyonder created a Multiverse,
that was atleast somehwere in the quintillions of time greater,
based on Shooter's analogy.
Beyonde Realm = an Ocean
Prime infinite Multiverse = a droplet of water.
Whoah, who ever said that none of the multiverses had any abstracts?! It was my understanding that they just had different concepts.
And I understand that Beyonder's realm was seperate, but it was part of marvel. And Marvel today is the same size it was then, just differently arranged. My point still stands, Beyonder was missing that "drop of water", but thanos wasn't missing anything at all.
Originally posted by King KandyWhoah, who ever said that none of the multiverses had any abstracts?!
It was my understanding that they just had different concepts.
This is from the Marvel official Handbook 2006:
"A Universe is a SINGLE-Dimension Reality, such as Earth 616,
the Mainstream Marvel Universe.
The Multiverse ...
is the collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.
Earth 616 and Alternates seen in the Marvel Universe
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.
Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse."
Originally posted by King KandyAnd I understand that Beyonder's realm was seperate, but it was part of marvel. And Marvel today is the same size it was then, just differently arranged. My point still stands, Beyonder was missing that "drop of water", but thanos wasn't missing anything at all.
The only significant containment,
of Cosmic power is withIN the Prime Multiverse TODAY.
The only Reality other than Classic Beyonder's was the Prime Multiverse of today.
Beyonder created an infinite Multiverse it was like an Ocean.
The Prime Multiverse of then/today was like a drop of water.
There is NO hierarchy of power outside this same Multiverse, then or today.
I have to sleep now friend, good night.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel did:This is from the Marvel official Handbook [B]2006
:"A Universe is a SINGLE-Dimension Reality, such as Earth 616,
the Mainstream Marvel Universe.The Multiverse ...
is the collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.Earth 616 and Alternates seen in the Marvel Universe
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse."[/B]
Exactly. They don't have the SAME hierarchy, but they DO have significant power.
For instance, The New Universe has no abstracts, but it DOES have a very powerful artifact (starbrand.)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't think you understood what I said.The only significant containment,
of Cosmic power is withIN the Prime Multiverse TODAY.The only Reality other than Classic Beyonder's was the Prime Multiverse of today.
Beyonder created an infinite Multiverse it was like an Ocean.
The Prime Multiverse of then/today was like a drop of water.
There is NO hierarchy of power outside this same Multiverse, then or today.
I have to sleep now friend, good night.
