Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Started by SIDIOUS 6644 pages

Nai strikes again, and as always, is so persistent when it comes to Sidious.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but if you (Nai) are questioning Palpatine's skills as a pure duelist, wouldn't you also be questioning Maul's? If you are crediting all of Maul's skills to Sidious training, in an attempt to desperately claim Palpatine's saber victory over Maul owed to just that. Perhaps you are questioning Maul's combat prowess? After all, this couldn't be a desperate reach to lowball Sidious as a combatant. We all know you would never.

Why Mr. Nai? Why? Why? Why do you do it? Why keep fighting?

Why Mr. Nai? Why do you persist?!

You've not been around long enough to have much experience with him.

Also, can someone explain why blitzing those guards would put Kun on par with Sidious in speed? Both Kit and Maul have blitzed droids that posses speed to rival and fight against jedi, so as far as I'm concerned, they seem comparable to Kun's. IDK, but making council masters, both of whom are stated to be among the best sword fighters ever, look like statues just seems to be quite a bit better. Maybe I missed a scan. At least one of the scans he posted isn't showing up for me. Perhaps I'm in a bad spot. Can't wait to read over this thread, though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, can someone explain why blitzing those guards would put Kun on par with Sidious in speed?

It doesn't remotely, but Nai made his case so strongly (and just typed so many words) that no-one is going to bother to contradict him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
no-one is going to bother to contradict him.

😂

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't remotely, but Nai made his case so strongly (and just typed so many words) that no-one is going to bother to contradict him.

I'm willing to bet Beni will get back to him, as he seems far more patient than most here.

I'm working on a reply, coming slowly because I'm on vacation.

It is useless to resist.

Regardless of what's being used in combat, it's what's most effective that matters whether it's TK, lightning, or amulet blasts. Hell, even Naga and Ludo, two of the most powerful ancients, used TK and swords when it mattered most: combat (their fight against each other), except while they were hurling bricks, Palpatine's fight with Yoda had him hurling vehicle size pods.

Kun's spell on the senate- irrelevant.

Kyp's attack on Luke was mostly credited to his own power (New Essential Guide), with Kun giving him a boost, and Luke's light side powers being diminished on a DS nexus (Jedi Academy training Manual). Basically, amped dark side Kyp- irrelevant.

So, as far as the force is concerned, it'd come down to Kun's TK and blasts vs Sidious lightning and TK, in which case Sidious has shown more raw power and a much greater command over the force. He's ragdolled individuals who rival Kun in force strength.

Sorry, but other than range of abilities, I don't see Kun being that much more powerful than Dooku, who has ragdolled numerous powerful force users with the force alone. Power and force strength is usually tested in TK. If sorcery was end all be all then Maul's battle with the nightsister Mighella (a sorcerous/witch) should not have ended in her quick demise, and Sidious's battle with Yoda should have had him throwing around magic that he learned from Talzin, on top of sith sorcery he's learned from holocrons, Talzin should have defeated Sidious in the heart of her power with her hand-waving-fire-summoning power or her green mist that does practically just about anything.

Very lopsided fight.

Also, looking forward to seeing your reply, NewGuy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Sorry, but other than range of abilities, I don't see Kun being that much more powerful than Dooku,.

I know it hurts Cart, with Kun being one of your favorites.

But it also hurts that you didn't welcome be back.

Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the Jedi or Sith of his era (including Sadow, Nadd, Hord, Ragnos, Sorzus Syn, Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos), most of those Sith distance Dooku in power themselves. They're not even close.

Obviously Kun dies, but suggesting he's as powerful as Dooku is nuts.

and welcome back

@S66

Love it. 👆

Originally posted by carthage
Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the Jedi or Sith of his era (including Sadow, Nadd, Hord, Ragnos, Sorzus Syn, Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos), most of those Sith distance Dooku in power themselves. They're not even close.

and welcome back

Dooku is canonically one of the most powerful force users in history, so I'm not seeing how an era thousands of years before him would apply to him? Kun being more powerful than them doesn't make him more powerful than Dooku, considering none of them have shown to eclipse Dooku in power. In fact, majority in that list are feat-less, and Sadow's only on-panel duel had him tossing bricks around, nothing compared to what Dooku has been shown capable of. Sadow's power comes from sorcery which wouldn't do much here unless he had prep.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Sinious
@S66

Love it. 👆

Thank you.

Also, I said isn't that much more than Dooku.

For instance, Kun isn't even close to capable of ragdolling him. If they were to fight, Kun would have to earn his victory in a good fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
. Sadow's power comes from sorcery which wouldn't do much here unless he had prep.

Thank you.

Thank goodness you think that somehow Kun has no arms or legs, and that his ability to utilize sorcery is somehow useless. Dooku was stomped by Talzin easily and has shown repeated weakness to sorcery based attacks. Kun's implementation of blasts/or sorcery based attacks would have a similar effect, and Dooku's shown no defense or showings of barrier to suggest he could block Kun's immense physical strength and sorcery in tandem

Dooku is canonically one of the most powerful force users in history, so I'm not seeing how an era thousands of years before him would apply to him? Kun being more powerful than them doesn't make him more powerful than Dooku,

Karness Muur was stomping Cade and Krayt simultaneously, Freedon Nadd could strip Exar of the force/sever a telepathic link that stretched across a galaxy, formed a darkside nexus on his death, crush Exar under tons of rubble, etc. Exar is canonically one of the greatest Sith lords in History, and surpasses the individuals listed:

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt
n fact, majority in that list are feat-less, and Sadow's only on-panel duel had him tossing bricks aroun

So Kun being more powerful than individuals who can conjure illusions of entire fleets/reduce beings to charred husks with their force blasts, utilize barrier to repel blaster bolts that can punch holes through Republic ships, sever people from the force/empower entire fleets with BM, contain Sith spirits in Lake Nath, should be discounted due to lack of exposure? Lol.

@ Carthage

I don't disagree with anything you said as I personally love Kun and place him quite high but just out of curiosity, are you suggesting that Kun would semi-stomp Dooku?

Originally posted by carthage
Thank goodness you think that somehow Kun has no arms or legs, and that his ability to utilize sorcery is somehow useless. Dooku was stomped by Talzin easily and has shown repeated weakness to sorcery based attacks. Kun's implementation of blasts/or sorcery based attacks would have a similar effect, and Dooku's shown no defense or showings of barrier to suggest he could block Kun's immense physical strength and sorcery in tandem

Karness Muur was stomping Cade and Krayt simultaneously, Freedon Nadd could strip Exar of the force/sever a telepathic link that stretched across a galaxy, formed a darkside nexus on his death, crush Exar under tons of rubble, etc. Exar is canonically one of the greatest Sith lords in History, and surpasses the individuals listed:

So Kun being more powerful than individuals who can conjure illusions of entire fleets/reduce beings to charred husks with their force blasts, utilize barrier to repel blaster bolts that can punch holes through Republic ships, sever people from the force/empower entire fleets with BM, contain Sith spirits in Lake Nath, should be discounted due to lack of exposure? Lol.

No, Dooku has shown weakness to Talzin's sorcery--sorcery from a powerful witch whom even Sidious was hesitant on facing while on her own planet, so it's safe to say that Talzin is just proven to be more powerful than Dooku. Not to mention that all of her attacks on Dooku required prep, none of which would help in a random encounter. You're comparing apples to oranges, but no not even Talzin has proven capable of outright stomping Dooku with just magic. Dooku is likely a lot more knowledgeable than Windu on matters such as sorcery, but yet not even she was capable of stomping Windu through such mean. She wasn't prepared, and had to resort to dueling Windu. Also, Dooku has shown barrier and deflection when he easily batted away his own redirected lightning, which caused a good size explosion. No, it's not the best showing with it, but the ease in which it was done would suggest he is far from weak with barrier/defenses. There's a reason only a few have proven capable of getting passed his force aura. Kun's blasts haven't shown to be as potent off a nexus.

I'm discounting the notion that there's a large gap between Kun and Dooku in force power (if that's what you're implying) just because Kun is canonically superior to individuals who have shown to be extra powerful in areas that, for the most part, don't manifest in combat. The fleet illusion, for example, did what for Sadow when he faced off against Ludo? What powers did he use then in combat? I'm not discounting or lowballing them, but in order for me to agree they are more powerful than and can defeat someone like Dooku I need more combat oriented-feats. I am a fan of Dooku, and if this were about Vader, who has shown little more than TK, you'd expect the same generosity instead of accepting what you're providing as a case, correct? Or do you believe those individuals would stomp Vader?

Also, Muur didn't stomp Krayt until Krayt was stabbed in the neck. And Nadd did that to a much weaker incarnation of Kun, certainly not of Dooku's level. The ton of rubble is a good TK feat but Dooku can and has performed feats like that on a number of occasions. Even Plo Koon can collapse caves with a gesture. So before you bring up about Nad being a ghost, I'll go ahead and counter that with Dooku ragdolling and being much superior to individuals who can bring down tons of rubble. In other words, it's a feat that's not much for either of them to perform, so we can't compare them based on that.

No, Dooku has shown weakness to Talzin's sorcery--sorcery from a powerful witch whom even Sidious was hesitant on facing while on her own planet, so it's safe to say that Talzin is just proven to be more powerful than Dooku. Not to mention that all of her attacks on Dooku required prep, none of which would help in a random encounter. You're comparing apples to oranges, but no not even Talzin has proven capable of outright stomping Dooku with just magic.

Except Kun doesn't need "prep" to unleash his blasts, he was capable of blasting Aleema Keto with one shot. Aleema also didn't prep to reduce her servant to a charred corpse, and the only things that require "prep" in sorcery are rituals to begin with. Dooku's lightning could barely leave Kenobi and Anakin writhing on the ground, and in concentrated bursts its only killed Ventress and random nightbrothers compared to what Aleema did here:

Spoiler:

Not realy her showings to Dooku in SOD take place when she's weakened by draining and possessing him. A weakened Talzin can hold her own against an equally amped Darth Sidious, and stomp him with drain and other force abilities while in a weakened state. Off nexus she still has a wealth of force abilities that outstrip him as well as accolades that place her far above him as a force user

Dooku is likely a lot more knowledgeable than Windu on matters such as sorcery, but yet not even she was capable of stomping Windu through such mean. She wasn't prepared, and had to resort to dueling Windu. Also, Dooku has shown barrier and deflection when he easily batted away his own redirected lightning, which caused a good size explosion. No, it's not the best showing with it, but the ease in which it was done would suggest he is far from weak with barrier/defenses. There's a reason only a few have proven capable of getting passed his force aura. Kun's blasts haven't shown to be as potent off a nexus.

She never utilized sorcery other than blasts against Windu, and had she utilized sorcery Windu would've been toast as well. You've answered your own question because their fight was primarily a duel. A being who can canonically hold their own against Sidious is miles ahead of Windu as a force user. And when has Dooku deflected blasts that can reduce people to charred corpses or disintegrate a Sith spirit? Dooku's shown no talent for absorption and would be hard pressed to fend off Exar's superior physical strength (He was being taxed by Anakin), and a combination of sorcery and Kun's offense would weaken him rapidly.

I'm discounting the notion that there's a large gap between Kun and Dooku in force power (if that's what you're implying) just because Kun is canonically superior to individuals who have shown to be extra powerful in areas that, for the most part, don't manifest in combat. The fleet illusion, for example, did what for Sadow when he faced off against Ludo? What powers did he use then in combat? I'm not discounting or lowballing them, but in order for me to agree they are more powerful than and can defeat someone like Dooku I need more combat oriented-feats.

He was in his meditation sphere when he employed the illusions, lesser force users such as Satal Keeto could project illusions of hundreds of ships without a med sphere as well. Kun being more powerful than these force users who could employ the force on such a scale would be well above Dooku, who has used much more rudimentary attacks on people who don't compare in power at all. Just because we don't see them utilize force abilities such as illusions in combat, they can't be discounted due to lack of exposure simply. The individuals Dooku regularly beats up (Ventress, Tholme, Kenobi, Bulq, Legends Vos), lack anything but the most basic of force abilities. If anything he lacks any showings comparable to Kun's accolade of being the strongest Ancient Sith, and being more powerful than the Jedi of his era as well. Dooku's not that unique in the grand scheme of things. Vader is a different beast he's got immense raw power, but Exar's knowledge of sorcery was stated to be beyond Vader's knowlege as well:

The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere(Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)
Also, Muur didn't stomp Krayt until Krayt was stabbed in the neck. And Nadd did that to a much weaker incarnation of Kun, certainly not of Dooku's level. The ton of rubble is a good TK feat but Dooku can and has performed feats like that on a number of occasions. Even Plo Koon can collapse caves with a gesture.

Muur was stated to be more powerful than Cade and Krayt during the time they encountered him which is a total mind****.

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

-Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt

-Credit to I_like_Shit

With Karness's power Vader mused he'd kill Sidious, and even Vitiate feared the Ancient Sith spirits like Muur as well. Its irrelevant if he was injured as he was already more powerful than Krayt as per the quote. Seeing as Krayt even as of this time can slaughter an entire ship of Vong soldiers (a force feat that is beyond anything Dooku can accomplish), Exar being the most powerful Ancient Sith would put him above either fo them. Karness alone would be more than Dooku could handle tbh