Originally posted by Red Nemesis
👆 👆I'm not sure I'm willing to endorse the PROVE ONE OR TWO HOLOCRONS thing- didn't he have Malachor? A better question might be: PROVE ANYTHING IN MALACHOR IS HELPFUL IN COMBAT OR USEFUL TO REVAN AT ALL!
It WOULD be relevant if Allankles was debating combat. Instead he's debating knowledge.
Originally posted by truejedi
DS, this is a very interesting request coming from you. You haven't proved that Revan had ANY knowledge that wasn't common to PT Jedi yet, and you STILL compare Revan to the PT.
Asking for proof of Jedi Librarian's knowledge from Allankles while going on and on about how much Revan knew about the force is laughable.
Prove that Revan studied the force on levels of the PT Jedi, and didn't just know that he had knowledge on his(alledged) holocrons. This is as silly (changes your word so Red will give me 2 thumbs up!)as saying Revan had learned everything in his (alledged) holocrons.
Prove that Revan had ONE, or heck TWO holocrons from ancient Sith. Then prove that the knowledge on said holocrons was anything that was not common knowledge to jedi knights in PT order.
This is all in retribution to YOU of all people, asking for any sort of proof. You keep trying to substitute common sense for proof, and it just doesn't work. [/B]
well, considering how collected knowledge usually works... yes.
Newton freaked out when he discovered gravity, yet we all still know about it today...
DS, you asking me to prove any of this is pointless. YOU made the claim that Revan has force-knowledge. Not I. I said I don't believe he did have any exceptional force knowledge, disagreeing with you. YOU have burden of proof. YOU prove it. What part of this don't you understand? If you don't want to prove it, fine, don't. Just stop bringing it up like any of it matters.
Originally posted by truejedi
well, considering how collected knowledge usually works... yes.Newton freaked out when he discovered gravity, yet we all still know about it today...
DS, you asking me to prove any of this is pointless. YOU made the claim that Revan has force-knowledge. Not I. I said I don't believe he did have any exceptional force knowledge, disagreeing with you. YOU have burden of proof. YOU prove it. What part of this don't you understand? If you don't want to prove it, fine, don't. Just stop bringing it up like any of it matters.
And my claim is substantiated from Bane, from Korriban, and from Malachor V. You continuously asking me to prove what Revan specifically knew(irrelevant) doesn't have any effect on my argument.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And my claim is substantiated from Bane, from Korriban, and from Malachor V. You continuously asking me to prove what Revan specifically knew(irrelevant) doesn't have any effect on my argument.
what is your argument exactly? If i'm wrong I apologize, but i saw your argument as : Revan knows a lot of stuff, and that makes him powerful.
If so, have of your argument is unsubstantiable if we don't know what he knew.(the what he knew made him powerful part) If i have the argument wrong, please tell me what your argument was?
Originally posted by truejedi
what is your argument exactly? If i'm wrong I apologize, but i saw your argument as : Revan knows a lot of stuff, and that makes him powerful.If so, have of your argument is unsubstantiable if we don't know what he knew.(the what he knew made him powerful part) If i have the argument wrong, please tell me what your argument was?
In the SW mythos, more knowledge equates to more power. Revan's knowledge exceeds the majority of the characters in the mythos with the exception of Sidious. To claim that he isn't top tier is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Revan's knowledge exceeds the majority of the characters in the mythos with the exception of Sidious.
THIS is what I'm talking about DS. PROVE THIS. Prove what he knows that no one else knows. You can't. All of your other posts would be true IF you could prove this, but you cannot. You keep saying WHERE he went for knowledge, or what knowledge he had available.
Think of this: You claim that because Revan had access to more sith knowledge (a claim you can't prove, but i'll go with it at the moment) than any other sith in history, he had more knowledge than other force-users.
Obi-Wan Kenobi had access to the Jedi Archives for over 20 years. Because he had access to these, can we assume he knew everything in those archives? no. Can we assume he knew 1/2 of those archives? no. Can we assume he knew 1/5 of those archives? no. Can we assume he knew ANYTHING from those archives? no. we have no idea what he did or did not know.
Revan had access to Malachor for a year or two at most. You can't say what was at Malachor to learn (remember, one Sith holocron existed that had mostly financial information) , if that information was useful, or IF Revan bothered to learn it. You can't say if he learned 1/2 of the alledged info, if he learned a 1/4 of it, if he learned all of it, or what. You simply can't say. If it really was enough information to be substantial, and was say, substantial enough to rival the Jedi archives (doubtful) it is beyond the scope of reason to expect revan to absorb even a tiny fraction of that if he studied for many lifetimes. Its like memorizing the INTERNET. Not gonna happen. 2 years between KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Connect the dots DS, you can't get around it.
To try to say that he knew more than anyone but Sidious is just plain laughable. It is bordering on the absurd. You can do better. I don't mind giving him his due, but to try to state as fact that Revan had more knowledge than... i dunno, Yoda, for example just makes you sound silly.
Originally posted by truejedi
THIS is what I'm talking about DS. PROVE THIS. Prove what he knows that no one else knows. You can't. All of your other posts would be true IF you could prove this, but you cannot. You keep saying WHERE he went for knowledge, or what knowledge he had available.
Think of this: You claim that because Revan had access to more sith knowledge (a claim you can't prove, but i'll go with it at the moment) than any other sith in history, he had more knowledge than other force-users.
Obi-Wan Kenobi had access to the Jedi Archives for over 20 years. Because he had access to these, can we assume he knew everything in those archives? no. Can we assume he knew 1/2 of those archives? no. Can we assume he knew 1/5 of those archives? no. Can we assume he knew ANYTHING from those archives? no. we have no idea what he did or did not know.
Revan had access to Malachor for a year at most. You can't say what was at Malachor to learn (remember, one Sith holocron existed that had mostly financial information) , if that information was useful, or IF Revan bothered to learn it. You can't say if he learned 1/2 of the alledged info, if he learned a 1/4 of it, if he learned all of it, or what. You simply can't say. If it really was enough information to be substantial, and was say, substantial enough to rival the Jedi archives (doubtful) it is beyond the scope of reason to expect revan to absorb even a tiny fraction of that if he studied for many lifetimes. Its like memorizing the INTERNET. Not gonna happen. 2 years between KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Connect the dots DS, you can't get around it.
To try to say that he knew more than anyone but Sidious is just plain laughable. It is bordering on the absurd. You can do better. I don't mind giving him his due, but to try to state as fact that Revan had more knowledge than... i dunno, Yoda, for example just makes you sound silly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Of course I can. Canonically, he was the only one who discovered the underground cities of Malachor V filled with scrolls and holocrons.
Two years later, Malachor V is gone.
He plundered Korriban before anyone else and gave Bane rituals that made him shit his pants.
There's nothing suggesting the Jedi know even a fraction of sith rituals,
so I've proven my case. You can keep screaming "substantiate" but it doesn't make a bit of difference.
You have proven nothing. Your last post seemed even more desperate than usual to gloss over glaring holes in your argument with your personal opinion of Revan, your personal opinion of what he found, and your personal opinion of how much he absorbed. You are getting farther away from proof. The way to proof is to first scale down your claim, or to wait for further documentation on Revan. These are the only 2 ways you will ever be correct on this issue.
No, because he also studied those sources. For a year or two.
Besides, if i gave him the full 2 years of studying 8 hours a day, the best he could boast is a bachelors degree, or perhaps a masters in Sith... Whatever...(u still haven't exactly said) This is more than 800+ years of Yoda's knowledge. Ridiculous.
Was Obiwan a scholar? No. Was Revan? Yes. Did Revan study as much about the force as possible? Yes. Did Obi wan? No.
Prove these things about Revan. ANd what the heck does it matter? If obi-wan was a scholar and studied the Jedi archives everyday from birth to death, he would have memorized a miniscule portion of the info their-in. Memorizing the internet. Impossible. My point stands. Your counter-point was very very weak. I almost didn't address it at all.
[/B]
Sorry, it was described as "underground cities filled with sith scrolls and holocron[b]s, so stop arguing.
The fact that he was a scholar and that his rituals made Bane shit his pants is testament of his knowledge. You're going nowhere with this.
The fact that he was a scholar means nothing when he had 2 years to study the unknown things that we don't know what they are, or if they were usefull.
Please give me a page number where Bane shits his pants, because I don't remember that.
Also, the quote was more along the lines of "the rituals seemed to dangerous for bane to attempt yet" and THAT my friend DS, if i remember correctly, was in PoD, not the more powerful ROT Bane.
[/B][/QUOTE]
To try to say that he knew more than anyone but Sidious is just plain laughable. It is bordering on the absurd. You can do better. I don't mind giving him his due, but to try to state as fact that Revan had more knowledge than... i dunno, Yoda, for example just makes you sound silly.
yes. Correct.
Originally posted by truejedi
What was written on those scrolls, and what was on those holocrons?
[/B]
Nothing he got from the Korriban tombs is admissable. There was no knowledge in Korriban. There were weapons, some health packs, a few robots, and armor. Why do you think he got Sith knowledge from there?
which rituals? Hmmmm?
You have proven nothing. Your last post seemed even more desperate than usual to gloss over glaring holes in your argument with your personal opinion of Revan, your personal opinion of what he found, and your personal opinion of how much he absorbed. You are getting farther away from proof. The way to proof is to first scale down your claim, or to wait for further documentation on Revan. These are the only 2 ways you will ever be correct on this issue.
Straight? He didn't have a Sith Empire to run? He didn't leave so soon after the battle at the star forge that Sith on Korriban had already rebelled, killed each other, and fully rotted away, bones and all by the time the exile shows up 2 years later?
Besides, if i gave him the full 2 years of studying 8 hours a day, the best he could boast is a bachelors degree, or perhaps a masters in Sith... Whatever...(u still haven't exactly said) This is more than 800+ years of Yoda's knowledge. Ridiculous.
Prove these things about Revan. ANd what the heck does it matter? If obi-wan was a scholar and studied the Jedi archives everyday from birth to death, he would have memorized a miniscule portion of the info their-in. Memorizing the internet. Impossible. My point stands. Your counter-point was very very weak. I almost didn't address it at all.
stop arguing? when you are so wrong, and keep on reiterating the exact same points? The ones you can't prove? Its hardly arguing. Its more like... an excercise in patience of rabid fanboyism. I'm doing well so far.
The fact that he was a scholar means nothing when he had 2 years to study the unknown things that we don't know what they are, or if they were usefull.
Please give me a page number where Bane shits his pants, because I don't remember that.
Also, the quote was more along the lines of "the rituals seemed to dangerous for bane to attempt yet" and THAT my friend DS, if i remember correctly, was in PoD, not the more powerful ROT Bane.
yes. Correct. [/B]