Malak and Kreia vs Dooku

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dark side knowledge.

You said "Force" knowledge. A wise decision to retract that.

His learnings from Revan,

How long was he Revan's apprentice and how much did Revan teach him?

from Korriban

Korriban was also a Confederacy outpost; you're telling me Dooku's never been there?

We haven't seen Dooku exercise much variety in dark side abilities

And we have from Malak? Dooku demonstrates a phenomenal mastery of the Force (including molecular manipulation and precise telekinesis as well as a Force storm of lightning). Sidious doesn't demonstrate dozens of Force techniques, but we know through narrative he has them.

and he knows only what Sidious taught him.

And Sidious is a dark sider whose knowledge of... well... everything exceeds Revan's by an extraordinary amount. And Dooku had over a decade with him.

Then again, the same goes with Malak.

Yep. Malak was trained for less time by a person with inferior knowledge who may or may not have limited Malak in the same way.

[b]But he has Kreia on his side who definitely knows more than dooku.

Possibly.

But Dooku has had access to holocrons, Korriban and other locations, and is the most knowledgeable student of his time and of the Jedi Temple.

His knowledge is far and away superior to Malak's.

How long was he Revan's apprentice and how much did Revan teach him?

Korriban was also a Confederacy outpost; you're telling me Dooku's never been there?

And we have from Malak? Dooku demonstrates a phenomenal mastery of the Force (including molecular manipulation and precise telekinesis as well as a Force storm of lightning). Sidious doesn't demonstrate dozens of Force techniques, but we know through narrative he has them.

And Sidious is a dark sider whose knowledge of... well... everything exceeds Revan's by an extraordinary amount. And Dooku had over a decade with him.

Yep. Malak was trained for less time by a person with inferior knowledge who may or may not have limited Malak in the same way.

Possibly.

But Dooku has had access to holocrons, Korriban and other locations, and is the most knowledgeable student of his time and of the Jedi Temple.

His knowledge is far and away superior to Malak's. [/B]

That and Sidious never intended to die, so I doubt he taught Vader that much, probably enough to a useful tool but nothing else.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If you notice, I expanded on this fact with the fact that we know as much about that as we do about what Sidious taught Dooku./quote]

We know less, actually.

Irrelevant. Unless you're telling me there's as much knowledge there during Dooku's time as there was during Revan's plundering of it 4,000 years later.

That argument is irresistably lame, DS, and not at all worthy of you. Get your head out of Karpyshyn's ass and think for a second: was there as much knowledge on places like Korriban when Sidious was reigning Sith Lord? Probably not; yet his knowledge of the Force and of the dark side is greater than Malak's. And Kreia's. And Revan's. And Ragnos's. And Caedus's. And every Sith Lord who ever existed.

Not to mention you ignore the fact that that knowledge may have been replaced by Sith Lords between Malak and Dooku.

[quote]If you're asking me to prove what Revan taught Malak, then I would ask you to prove what Sidious taught DOoku.

That's not how it works. You made a claim, it's your burden to prove.

um..So? That's a terrible argument Escape because that means nothing. Vader had 19 years with Sidious and he learned.. What? Hell, it appears Jacen learned more on his 5 year sabbatical than Vader learned with 19 years with Sidious.

It's not a terrible argument; Vader was never a scholar nor were rival Force users enough of a threat to warrant deep Force knowledge.

And Sidious could have shown Dooku less in 10 years than Revan showed Malak in 1.

Which was your contention, clearly, and your job to prove.

Not possibly Escape. It's almost obvious that Kreia's knowledge of the force is superior to anything Dooku knows.

You've surprised me with your poor tactics here, so I'm going to abandon pretense of charity and ask you to prove it.

Which means what? He has access to what holocrons? The only one we're certain of is Andeddu. Korriban? What does he have there? Kreia would undoubtedly have had a hell of a lot more access to Korriban's traesure. Other locations? What sith locations has Dooku been to that Malak or Kreia haven't?

Again, lame argument.

Sidious was never on Malachor V; Kreia and Revan were. And since, by your logic, he's never been anywhere that they haven't and they've been some place he hasn't, his knowledge must be inferior!

Oh, wait...

This is speculation not defended at all by your argument. [/B]

It is. You've made the claim. Back it up or retract it.

Originally posted by Gideon
That argument is irresistably lame, DS, and not at all worthy of you. Get your head out of Karpyshyn's ass and think for a second: was there as much knowledge on places like Korriban when Sidious was reigning Sith Lord? Probably not; yet his knowledge of the Force and of the dark side is greater than Malak's. And Kreia's. And Revan's. And Ragnos's. And Caedus's. And every Sith Lord who ever existed.

It is. You've made the claim. Back it up or retract it.

Cease with shifting of the burden of proof. Mine was a counterclaim to your original contention. Prove it or retract it, and then we'll deal with mine.

You made yours first. Period.

Edit: Not to mention that if your logic is to be believed, since every Sith Lord between Malak and Sidious would have had less knowledge from the available worlds than their Masters, it wouldn't make a difference.

Originally posted by Gideon
Cease with shifting of the burden of proof. Mine was a counterclaim to your original contention. Prove it or retract it, and then we'll deal with mine.

You made yours first. Period.

This is speculation not defended at all by your argument. [/B]

[quote]It is. You've made the claim. Back it up or retract it.

Simply saying "it is" isn't a counter claim, nor have you backed up that claim up in any way. I'm not the only one who's apparently making claims without any proof to them. So instead of focusing on me responding first, you should be focusing on backing up your statements as well.

And yes, I AM saying that since Malak, there is less knowledge on Korriban and plundered sith systems. How are you possibly contending this? The fact that sidious is so powerful has more to do with him having access to all of these artifacts.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak isn't a threat? Prove it. Trying to prove your point by calling the other side "KOTOR fanboyism" does nothing other than destroy your own argument. It also proves that your definition of logic isn't exactly "logical".

The way I see it, we have two problems:
[list=1]
[*]"Destroying my own argument"
-and-
[*]My definition of Logic
[/list]

"My Own Argument"
I don't believe that there is any basis for claiming that Malak is a threat other than KotOR fanboyism. Dooku's greatness is pretty solid: Nebaris's attacks on his skillz haven't been very successful. I don't think that anyone (even you) want to argue that Dooku is weak. This leaves us with the idea that Malak (and, I suppose, Kreia) are strong. What are you basing that idea on? Malak was able to defeat a Revan with none of his memories and some of his connection to the Force blocked while on the Leviathan. That doesn't mean much to me. Later, he used a gimmick to contend with Revan while empowered by the Star Forge. This isn't taking place on the Star Forge. Malak won't have any of the advantages that he used against Revan for this fight. If he did, I might reconsider, but Dooku would get a similar DS Nexus boost, so even that might not help him. Unless I'm missing something from the comics, the only time we've seen Malak in action was while he fought with Revan in KotOR. Neither of his showings put him at Dooku's level.

Destroying My Own Argument
Your claim that pointing out percieved fanboyism effectively destroys my argument hasn't got any merit at all. I (rightfully) noted that there isn't much basis for placing Malak at Dooku's level other than personal preference for the KotOR characters and era. How this would undermine my argument remains a mystery to me, even with several moments of concentrated effort. Does someone else being a fanboy make me wrong?

Logic

log⋅ic
   /ˈlɒdʒɪk/ [loj-ik]
–noun
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

If this is SF powered Malak, then Dooku is in for the fight of his life because Kreia is there too. Even if it isn't, It's Malak and Kreia's 3 floating blades against Dooku. Not exactly what you'd call a guaranteed win for him.

A minor point, but would Kreia get the floating blades in a strict saber duel? That isn't really swordsmanship, and it isn't her default fighting style. That seems like it would belong in the 'All out' portion of the fight. (Where Dooku would be able to use the Force to dispatch the blades more quickly.)

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

In a force battle, Dooku doesn't stand a chance. Malak and Kreia have more force knowledge than Dooku and more offensive techniques. Add the fact that it's a 2 on 1, and Dooku gets donkey stomped.

Gideon seems to have countered your 'More Force Knowledge' assertion, so I will leave that part alone.

The 2 on 1 might be a factor that I need to re-examine, but Malak hasn't shown any exceptional Force mastery that would put him in a position to threaten Dooku.

Kreia might be a different situation, but her strength is an unknown, while Dooku is confirmed to be near the top in Force mastery. In the absence of facts supporting Kreia (again, assuming that the insta-kill is barred. I would side with the KotOR era team if that attack was allowed.) I think that we have to go with the established top-tier candidate.

DS, you're working your way towards my ignore function. Stop being an ass. You made the claim. You've also subscribed to shitty logic. Deal with your claim first (as it was the first claim posted) and then we'll deal with mine.

It's simple. And you know better than to use this retarded Nebaris-logic.

Originally posted by Gideon
DS, you're working your way towards my ignore function. Stop being an ass. You made the claim. You've also subscribed to shitty logic. Deal with your claim first (as it was the first claim posted) and then we'll deal with mine.

It's simple. And you know better than to use this retarded Nebaris-logic.

So what you're saying is instead of spending the extra 1 minute to point out your claims, you're focusing on the fact that I haven't proved mine? That seems more like nebaris logic to me. But I'll play your game. What claims do you want proven exactly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So what you're saying is instead of spending the extra 1 minute to point out your claims, you're focusing on the fact that I haven't proved mine? That seems more like nebaris logic to me. But I'll play your game. What claims do you want proven exactly.

You made the claim. As Nemesis has already reiterated, Dooku has displayed a greater command (i.e. mastery) of the Force surpassing Malak and has narrative supporting the idea that he's near the very top of the food chain in terms of Force mastery. I don't have to prove shit for numerous reasons.

1.) You made the claim.
2.) Your "lulz Korriban" argument is retarded (because it would apply to Sidious as well, who surpasses every other Sith [including Revan and Malak]).
3.) My claim that Dooku is more knowledgeable has already been proven.

Now prove Malak is more knowledgeable.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"My Own Argument"
I don't believe that there is any basis for claiming that Malak is a threat other than KotOR fanboyism. Dooku's greatness is pretty solid: Nebaris's attacks on his skillz haven't been very successful. I don't think that anyone (even you) want to argue that Dooku is weak. This leaves us with the idea that Malak (and, I suppose, Kreia) are strong. What are you basing that idea on? Malak was able to defeat a Revan with none of his memories and some of his connection to the Force blocked while on the Leviathan. That doesn't mean much to me. Later, he used a gimmick to contend with Revan while empowered by the Star Forge. This isn't taking place on the Star Forge. Malak won't have any of the advantages that he used against Revan for this fight. If he did, I might reconsider, but Dooku would get a similar DS Nexus boost, so even that might not help him. Unless I'm missing something from the comics, the only time we've seen Malak in action was while he fought with Revan in KotOR. Neither of his showings put him at Dooku's level.

Destroying My Own Argument
Your claim that pointing out percieved fanboyism effectively destroys my argument hasn't got any merit at all. I (rightfully) noted that there isn't much basis for placing Malak at Dooku's level other than personal preference for the KotOR characters and era. How this would undermine my argument remains a mystery to me, even with several moments of concentrated effort. Does someone else being a fanboy make me wrong?

As I wasn't conducting a formal proof, I think that definitions 2-5, and especially 4, most accurately fit with your use of the word 'logic'. Could you explain how dismissing baseless assertions (regarding KotOR era characters' power levels) is illogical or displays a misunderstanding or misapplication of logic?
The Battle
[/b]
It isn't SF powered Malak, and if the battle was occurring on the SF, Dooku would get a similar boost.

A minor point, but would Kreia get the floating blades in a strict saber duel? That isn't really swordsmanship, and it isn't her default fighting style. That seems like it would belong in the 'All out' portion of the fight. (Where Dooku would be able to use the Force to dispatch the blades more quickly.)

Gideon seems to have countered your 'More Force Knowledge' assertion, so I will leave that part alone.

Kreia might be a different situation, but her strength is an unknown, while Dooku is confirmed to be near the top in Force mastery. In the absence of facts supporting Kreia (again, assuming that the insta-kill is barred. I would side with the KotOR era team if that attack was allowed.) I think that we have to go with the established top-tier candidate. [/B]

Originally posted by Gideon
You made the claim. As Nemesis has already reiterated, Dooku has displayed a greater command (i.e. mastery) of the Force surpassing Malak and has narrative supporting the idea that he's near the very top of the food chain in terms of Force mastery. I don't have to prove shit for numerous reasons.

1.) You made the claim.
2.) Your "lulz Korriban" argument is retarded (because it would apply to Sidious as well, who surpasses every other Sith [including Revan and Malak]).
3.) My claim that Dooku is more knowledgeable has already been proven.

Now prove Malak is more knowledgeable.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I retracted my overall force claim and added "dark side knowledge".

Which you have yet to prove.

He had access to the treasure troves of Korriban, and to Revan. How much this means we don't know exactly. At the same time, Dooku had access to Sidious, and what else exactly?

Dooku has displayed a greater command of the Force and has had narrative support that claim.

But thanks for the concession.

2. It's not retarded because it does apply to Sidious as well. Him being the most powerful sith of all time doesn't mean he found more knowledge on Korriban than that of Malak. He has collected sith artifacts from various locations, but challenging the position that there are possibly more artifacts on sith planets now than there were 4,000 years ago, is absurd.

I didn't say there were more artifacts. Nor is Sidious simply stronger than Malak and Revan. His knowledge surpasses theirs as well. The fact that they had "access to treasure troves!!1!" at Korriban doesn't mean shit, because clearly even if they did, it didn't make them any more knowledgeable than the next guy.

3. Again, you stating it doesn't make it so. Simply saying "lolz Dooku trained under Sidious for 10 years!" doesn't prove any kind of a point. You've yet to prove Dooku's superiority in dark side knowledge, which WAS my amended claim. You've also yet to prove how Dooku would defeat Malak AND Kreia, which was my other claim. Try again.

I didn't say Dooku could defeat Malak and Kreia. We're not going to do this again, DS.

Prove your contention, retract it, or ignore this thread and move on.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak isn't a threat? Prove it. Trying to prove your point by calling the other side "KOTOR fanboyism" does nothing other than destroy your own argument. It also proves that your definition of logic isn't exactly "logical".

Attacking the opposition without having an argument yourself and attempting to lecturing him, that he can't make points like this, while trying to do it yourself - well. What's this, in case his access wasn't very "logical" ?

If this is SF powered Malak, then Dooku is in for the fight of his life because Kreia is there too. Even if it isn't, It's Malak and Kreia's 3 floating blades against Dooku. Not exactly what you'd call a guaranteed win for him.

I neither see the thread-starter saying that this fight happens on the Star Forge, nor do I see any "three blades of Traya" mentioned somewhere. And please. Traya went down against the Exile. An "average Jedi". I don't see her being much of a thread to "one of the most powerful Jedi" in the past 25,000 years. Malak? Died against Revan, who is also potentially less powerful and skilled with a blade in comparison to Dooku - and this while being powered up by the Star Forge.

In a force battle, Dooku doesn't stand a chance. Malak and Kreia have more force knowledge than Dooku and more offensive techniques. Add the fact that it's a 2 on 1, and Dooku gets donkey stomped.

I wonder how the hell Kreia and Malak would have more force knowledge and offensive force techniques than one of the most powerful individuals in the entire f*cking saga. The same Dooku that owned Ventress by lifting one finger. Especially if you think about what Malak and Kreia have shown in terms of force abilities. A force drain? (Kreia) I doubt that would be effective against somebody capable of hiding his presence in the Force completely (Dooku). Or force lightning (Malak)? I'm sure Dooku can't defend himself against that, despite the fact that he is one of the 3 beings seen to deflect force lightning with his hands in the PT era...

Yeah. He gets totally owned. 🙄

Originally posted by Gideon
Dooku has displayed a greater command of the Force and has had narrative support that claim.

I didn't say there were more artifacts. Nor is Sidious simply stronger than Malak and Revan. His knowledge surpasses theirs as well. The fact that they had "access to treasure troves!!1!" at Korriban doesn't mean shit, because clearly even if they did, it didn't make them any more knowledgeable than the next guy.

I didn't say Dooku could defeat Malak and Kreia. We're not going to do this again, DS.

I neither see the thread-starter saying that this fight happens on the Star Forge, nor do I see any "three blades of Traya" mentioned somewhere. And please. Traya went down against the Exile. An "average Jedi". I don't see her being much of a thread to "one of the most powerful Jedi" in the past 25,000 years. Malak? Died against Revan, who is also potentially less powerful and skilled with a blade in comparison to Dooku - and this while being powered up by the Star Forge.

I wonder how the hell Kreia and Malak would have more force knowledge and offensive force techniques than one of the most powerful individuals in the entire f*cking saga. The same Dooku that owned Ventress by lifting one finger. Especially if you think about what Malak and Kreia have shown in terms of force abilities. A force drain? (Kreia) I doubt that would be effective against somebody capable of hiding his presence in the Force completely (Dooku). Or force lightning (Malak)? I'm sure Dooku can't defend himself against that, despite the fact that he is one of the 3 beings seen to deflect force lightning with his hands in the PT era...

Yeah. He gets totally owned. 🙄 [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My claim was dark side knowledge.

They were more knowledgeable because they had artifacts. Sidious is more knowledgeable because he has artifacts. Wtf does Dooku has? It was your contention that Dooku is more knowledable in the darkside. Prove it.

Yet this was my contention. The only other contention I made was Malak>dooku in darkside knowledge.

You're shifting the goalpost ala Nebaris and expecting me to tolerate it? Wrong.

I was even charitable to address my argument even though you made your contention first. That's over.

We're done. When you pull your head out of your ass, you can have someone private message me.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I retracted my overall force claim and added "dark side knowledge". He had access to the treasure troves of Korriban, and to Revan. How much this means we don't know exactly. At the same time, Dooku had access to Sidious, and what else exactly?

Excuse me? The only being in the SW mythos that had access to Revan's sources is Revan. If you don't want to accept that, then we have to assume that Dooku has complete access to everything Sidious had in the time of RotS. Which would include all knowledge extracted from Revan's holocron...

And siting Korriban (already plundered in Kun's time) and Malachor V (dubious amount of knowledge) as sources for WTFOMG-Dark Side Lore isn't the smartest thing to do when you can't substantiate the respective knowledge stored there. And this is not even mentioning that the only being having access to the complete wealth of that knowledge was Revan himself.

2. It's not retarded because it does apply to Sidious as well. Him being the most powerful sith of all time doesn't mean he found more knowledge on Korriban than that of Malak. He has collected sith artifacts from various locations, but challenging the position that there are possibly more artifacts on sith planets now than there were 4,000 years ago, is absurd.

You probably want to do a check of the knowledge source of Sidious. Hint: It includes everything that Bane found (Revan's holocron, knowledge from Nadd etc.) adding another 1000 years of Sith knowledge either generated or found by the various Sith Lords between Bane and Sidious. To state that Malak (Revan) found more knowledge in 6 months than the Ro2 Order in 1000 years is absurd. To assume he shared what he found with Malak - even more. Especially if you consider the fact that KotoR itself displays Sith that don't share their knowledge with their minions.

3. Again, you stating it doesn't make it so. Simply saying "lolz Dooku trained under Sidious for 10 years!" doesn't prove any kind of a point.

But stating that Malak trained for 6 month under Revan who had a huge amount of knowledge does prove a point? Right...

You've yet to prove Dooku's superiority in dark side knowledge, which WAS my amended claim.

Excuse me. You did toss the point into the debate that Malak and Kreia have more Dark Side knowledge than Dooku. So please don't attempt to shift the burden of proof but present your "proof" to turn that statement into a valid point. Until then, I'll take one of the most powerful (and knowledgeable) Jedi in 25,000 years and "an even more powerful Sith" who studied the force for more than 8 decades over Padawan-Gone-Dark-Side-Malak and Librarian-Gone-Darkside-Kreia each time of the day.

You've also yet to prove how Dooku would defeat Malak AND Kreia, which was my other claim. Try again.

Saber rape one of them while force raping the other. As he does with Anakin / Obi-Wan or Bulq / Tholme. Technically, he just has to get one of them out of the fight and then defeat the other. Impossible for Dooku, who seems to be quite the perfectionist when it comes down to direct confrontation? I don't think so.

I love it when Darth Sexy gets his debate on.