If applying "the real life logic!" of a 7 year old thinking "it's bad to get hit, so I won't, using my basic ability of speed" is a "no-no" then I might as well call it a day on this forum.
That is, literally, the most basic logic one can use.
So, in short, we shouldn't use any kind of logic.
Meanwhile, right next door to this thread:
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm still unsure how this would go down. tough to see nate winning without going fully exotic. he could tk hulk's mind--literally disassemble it via tk, then use his tk to prevent him healing. he could hold that long enough to get a win a guess. he should be able to use his tk control to fully interrupt any of hulk's bodily functions--heart, lungs, whatever, but once tk was released....i don't see tp working, nor energy release. time stop would have been an option, but hulk....
he could left him from the ground and hold him--but that wouldn't last. nate's tk vs hulk strength wouldn't end well for nate.
---
I will wait for the mods to "define it" better.
But if I'm forced to treat characters just Superman/Flash 🙂 as dumber than a box of rocks, because we can't use the basic "logic", well, yeah.
Originally posted by carver9
Did that discredit my scan?
It says how he's always alone in his speed bubble. And it's lonely.
Your scan simply says he has to catch up to....The fastest guy in DC, lol.
Iow, your scan doesn't say what you think it says.
If my car has to go up a gear to match a Ferrari in a race....Does it mean your 1950s milk cart can match me? No. Matching a Ferrari in no way means ANYTHING for how my car performs against others.
@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show... 😕
i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic.
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrug
again.....speed CAN be used. as it is in comics. and this would impact a lot more than just flash/superman. it would impact the way several characters are debated.
again, not saying one way is better. just that we should pick one and all be on the same page. the mishmash isn't working.
btw--hilarious bedfellows here--you have h1 in your corner and i have blue and carv. sigils broken indeed... 😂
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It says how he's always alone in his speed bubble. And it's lonely.Your scan simply says he has to catch up to....The fastest guy in DC, lol.
Iow, your scan doesn't say what you think it says.
If my car has to go up a gear to match a Ferrari in a race....Does it mean your 1950s milk cart can match me? No. Matching a Ferrari in no way means ANYTHING for how my car performs against others.
Your first comment doesnt taken away from him not activating his ability.
If his speed was always active, lol, he wouldn't have to speed it up to catch up. It was natural for Flash during that same scene. Unless you're saying his top speed isnt always active (he was able to match Flash during that scene which means the speed was there, he just needed to activate it to get there).
Originally posted by leonidasYeah, I like to think logically on how a super-genius kryptonian would act.
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic.
And I just have him....defend himself, with a basic ability.
And you think that's too much real life logic.
......
Originally posted by leonidasHow can you look at what H1 is arguing, and what me and Darksaint are arguing, and think it's the same thing?
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrug
Here, take this:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/30/Appeal-to-Extremes
"Superman will use a 7 years old logic, and dodge"
"OMG SUPERMAN BEATS SKYFATHERS"
Originally posted by leonidasYou're arguing in a thread that Superman won't use speed and protect himself. Because he feels alienated. Or bored. Or sad.
@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show... 😕i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic.
In another thread, you say it's possible that Nate can deconstruct Hulk's brain continuously for a forum win.
You don't see the difference?
Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--not sure what the quote from the nate thread is supposed to show... 😕i specifically said i don't think we could win UNLESS he went exotic.
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.
if we want to use logic, then by all means, let's ALL do that. but then it SHOULD follow that we FOLLOW that logic to its end. ergo, we have h1 forms of debate--superman and flash should be off the lists entirely because they are skyfathers, at least. we can't just use logic when it's comfortable. /shrugagain.....speed CAN be used. as it is in comics. and this would impact a lot more than just flash/superman. it would impact the way several characters are debated.
again, not saying one way is better. just that we should pick one and all be on the same page. the mishmash isn't working.
btw--hilarious bedfellows here--you have h1 in your corner and i have blue and carv. sigils broken indeed... 😂
Then it's simple.
In threads involving characters with lopsided speed abilities, equalise them. When they're not, then it's not.
On panel, in comics, streets can hang with heralds. Damage goes from stalemating Superman in strength, to being unable to KO Batman,lol.
Follow it to the end.
Originally posted by carver9
Your first comment doesnt taken away from him not activating his ability.If his speed was always active, lol, he wouldn't have to speed it up to catch up. It was natural for Flash during that same scene. Unless you're saying his top speed isnt always active (he was able to match Flash during that scene which means the speed was there, he just needed to activate it to get there).
Does your car only have two speeds, walking speed and it's top speed?
Originally posted by Philosophía
If applying "the real life logic!" of a 7 year old thinking "it's bad to get hit, so I won't, using my basic ability of speed" is a "no-no" then I might as well call it a day on this forum.That is, literally, the most basic logic one can use.
So, in short, we shouldn't use any kind of logic.
Meanwhile, right next door to this thread:
---
I will wait for the mods to "define it" better.
But if I'm forced to treat
charactersjust Superman/Flash 🙂 as dumber than a box of rocks, because we can't use the basic "logic", well, yeah.
We already have.
Originally posted by Galan007
We could certainly better-define/clarify what 'in character' actually means in the forum rules(I'd be happy to do so), but imo, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason comes into play -- especially for a character as intelligent and battle-savvy as Superman.Speed is among the most rudimentary abilities in a character's arsenal, and Superman has a well-documented history of superspeed usage. Therefore, once Superman figured out whether or not WH's claws pose a legitimate threat to him(which could be deduced via a quick molecular scan, even IF he goes into this battle without any knowledge of WH's abilities), then logic dictates that Supes would at least use *enough* speed to dodge WH's attacks in order to avoid getting killed. I mean, even if we don't want to allow a character to use the full breadth of their superspeed offensively in a forum battle, then surely they should be able to use just enough of that speed defensively to protect themselves, no? I'm sure everyone can agree that most characters are intended to go into a forum battle with the basic will to live, right?
IOW, if character A can dodge bullets, and character B points a gun at them and pulls the trigger, would we not assume that character A will dodge the bullets in a forum battle if they have done so in the past? Again, that much just comes down to instinctual self-preservation, imo. /shrug
@Saint
We could certainly better-define/clarify what 'in character' actually means in the forum rules(I'd be happy to do so), but imo, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason comes into play
Originally posted by leonidas
and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.
Logic is forbidden.
The medium for in char and full cap?
Hard to say.
Funny thing, Kingdom Gog was a marriage of these two thing unto himself. He used ridic ftl like speed from time to time like when he dealt with Flash... However he wasn't going around speedblitzing the heroes ftl..
Putting a heavy emphasis on rl physics and injecting that emphasis on comic characters is a path to shietstorm. There has to be a medium I would think.
Take for example anyone speaking while at super speed mode a la regular peeps are frozen... How is that even possible in rl? I mean sound travelling in that level of speed? If it isn't, can we now call those speed showings PIS(emphasis on irl terms speaking)? I know flash uses sf etc to alleviate effects of rl science, but then how does his mass grow as he approaches light for example? This is gonna be applicable on a lot of feats if that's the case and not only about speed... Believe me....
If there is some level of "suspension of disbelief" when it comes to feats, shouldn't we extend that too in this setting? There's just Sooo much to consider.
Originally posted by carver9He always perceives events that take place in small increments of time and reacts to them, while being in normal mode, and being unaware that they're about to happen in order to "activate" it.
If his speed was always active
Like here, with a really fast visual stimuli:
Or here, for a really fast audio stimuli [while barely having gained his powers]:
For the Flash scene, the author clearly explained that he perceives the events all the time, but he can choose to focus them or not (in this case, a gunshot or Barry Allen going at top-speeds were something he would not want to ignore)
There's countless examples.
It's no different than any other speedster, who interacts with people normally, but can perceive and react to microscale events.
Stop talking.
There's also the fact that Superman went from 'normal' perception mode, to high-end/Flash-level perception mode, instantly(*clap on*), because there was simply a need for increased speed in that situation... And this was the same Flash who bragged about being able to perceive/react on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis a few pages later.
IOW, that scan doesn't help carver's case at all. Actually hurts it quite a bit.
Originally posted by Galan007
Probably does need to be clarified a little better in the rules(one way or the other) just to avoid confusion in the future.That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.
TBH, while I don't mind the idea of writing something with more clarity, I'm kinda wondering what I should write, as at least every post in this thread has been a little bit wrong in the interpretation of what I honestly thought was a pretty clear rule.
That said, if the majority wants things a certain way, I wouldn't be opposed to working something out, even if I disagree with it personally.
I'm open to working it out in PMs if you want. Or if you want to open it up to people, a thread.
In short:
When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:
Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpg
Same attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3S
OMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.
When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...
Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.
I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.
But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'
Originally posted by cdtm
The question, is whether people are arguing in good faith.No rule can fix intentional misreading/internet lawyering.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
You'd find a very small percentage if any, that are arguing in good faith.
Whether they are or not, I want the rules to be clear. And I want this board not to be full of "powerset vs powerset" shite.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short:When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:
Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpgSame attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3SOMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.
When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...
Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.
I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.
But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'
This is why you look at the majority, not the minority. If Batman is consistently tanking Wonder Woman level punches, then an argument can not be made against him. A couple or showing doesnt tane president over a character entire history. This is what makes KMC different than Comicvine. When you start to debate primarily off of powerset,, it ruins the entire experience of debating.
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