Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Interesting how your methods of debate change between threads there H1. 30 to 50 tone strength for upgrade Predator because reasons, yet dies to the equivalent of a hand grenade and a few 9mm pistol rounds. Now you're giving someone the benefit of the doubt to the skull of Rulk against a dude literally in the same strength class as him, wielding a spear....it is precisely this kind of logic that makes everyone who talks to you ask the question "Why are you drinking the wakckazaid out of a clown shoe?"
I only compare the highest feats. If another showing contradicts the highest, it isn’t considered. My estimates are based on calculations.
Rulk is multiple times stronger than Namor. They are not in the same tier, as their feats differ vastly.
Originally posted by h1a8
I only compare the highest feats. If another showing contradicts the highest, it isn’t considered. My estimates are based on calculations.Rulk is multiple times stronger than Namor. They are not in the same tier, as their feats differ vastly.
Just because you discount them, doesn't mean they cease to exist or stop being relevant. You either take the bad with the good, or you cease the debate, becaus eyou are not one who gets to dictate what is or isnt relevant evidence.
Originally posted by h1a8
He claimed that Namor can stab through Rulk's skull. He needs to prove it, considering Rulk's skull is significantly more durable than his skin, which is already far stronger than the toughest steel.I don't know about you, but we prove these type of things comparing top feats.
But this is where common sense should automatically kick in. If Sam could pierce the Red Hulk with wings of a weaker vibranium then why wouldn't a character with significantly more strength and speed with a weapon of pure vibranium not be able to?
It's that easy. Really it is.
(And here we go with the whole flesh isn't bone crap for 5 more pages)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Just because you discount them, doesn't mean they cease to exist or stop being relevant. You either take the bad with the good, or you cease the debate, becaus eyou are not one who gets to dictate what is or isnt relevant evidence.
I debate and compare the highest showings, as most do here. We stick to this approach to avoid biased cherry-picking.
Cherry-picking can easily change the outcome of many fights.
It's also impossible to reach a consensus when using contradictory showings. A character is either at the level of the low showing or they are at the level at the high showing. They can't be both. For example, a character can't be both bulletproof and not bulletproof at the same time.
If you disagree with this approach, that's fine. But if you want to debate me, know that this is the standard I'll be using.
Originally posted by tkitna
But this is where common sense should automatically kick in. If Sam could pierce the Red Hulk with wings of a weaker vibranium then why wouldn't a character with significantly more strength and speed with a weapon of pure vibranium not be able to?It's that easy. Really it is.
(And here we go with the whole flesh isn't bone crap for 5 more pages)
Skull bone is vastly more durable than skin.
All we have is Rulk's skin being cut by vibranium powered by a device.
You are defeating your own argument by saying, And here we go with the whole flesh isn't bone crap
How is is crap? It's the truth.
Originally posted by tkitna
But this is where common sense should automatically kick in. If Sam could pierce the Red Hulk with wings of a weaker vibranium then why wouldn't a character with significantly more strength and speed with a weapon of pure vibranium not be able to?It's that easy. Really it is.
(And here we go with the whole flesh isn't bone crap for 5 more pages)
Surely it is then simple?
Bone needs about 10x more energy to cut compared to skin (let's assume Rulk's skin and bones are relatively the same i.e. when human Harrison Ford becomes Rulk, his skin and bones both amp up).
Is Namor more than 10x stronger than Sam Wilson?
Originally posted by h1a8
I debate and compare the highest showings, as most do here. We stick to this approach to avoid biased cherry-picking.Cherry-picking can easily change the outcome of many fights.
It's also impossible to reach a consensus when using contradictory showings. A character is either at the level of the low showing or they are at the level at the high showing. They can't be both. For example, a character can't be both bulletproof and not bulletproof at the same time.If you disagree with this approach, that's fine. But if you want to debate me, know that this is the standard I'll be using.
And you'd be wrong, and have been wrong on this assumption since the very beginning. But beyond that, you are wrong. You cherry-pick only the highest showings for the side you debate for, but not always the side you debate against. Example, the T-X's legs. You cherry-picked that as it's best durability feat when it's not, and you discounted the RPG-7 hit, which put her durability beyond that of the Ultimate Predator, who lost limbs to less powerful explosions under the false assumption that you thought it took more damage from other sources.
And that is why cherry-picking both highs and lows doesn't work in a vacuum. You take the whole as a whole and debate from there. You find the consistency not just the highball, and you work from there. It is why most people disagree with your assessments, because they know it's cherry-picked nonsense. It's why your 30mm Gatling gun ammunition calculation assumption was utter bullshit, because we had actual factual numbers to prove you wrong.
And you'd again be wrong, because you don't get to decide that in a vacuum, only the thread-starter decides that kind of scrutiny. If you want to debate solely with your own metrics, make the damn threads yourself, instead of hijacking ones others have made.
Originally posted by h1a8
Cap's shield is made of pure vibranium.Wakandan ships, as you assume, are made of a vibranium alloy - a mixture of vibranium and other materials. That's what I meant by "filtered" vibranium.
Black Panther's suit is also a blend of vibranium and other materials, designed for flexibility and weaving. It's not pure vibranium, making it weaker by comparison.
Thanos' sword is made of an unknown metal, so it has no relevance to this argument.
The fact remains: a vibranium spear pierced both a Wakandan ship and vibranium weave. This confirms that both are weaker than pure vibranium. Exactly how much weaker is unknown, but you can't apply the durability feats of Cap's shield to Wakandan ships.
There's no need to resort to insults. Just give effective rebuttals instead.
BP's claws are made of vibranium and they damaged Cap's shied. So we know vibranium can damage vibranium.
Prove Wakandan ship exteriors are made of this "alloy" you invented and not vibranium? It's not like Wakanda has a shortage of the stuff.
You've dodge again in proving Red Hulk's skull is stronger than pure vibranium. Go on, prove it.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you'd be wrong, and have been wrong on this assumption since the very beginning. But beyond that, you are wrong. You cherry-pick only the highest showings for the side you debate for, but not always the side you debate against. Example, the T-X's legs. You cherry-picked that as it's best durability feat when it's not, and you discounted the RPG-7 hit, which put her durability beyond that of the ultimate Predator, who lost limbs to less powerful explosions under the false assumption that you thought it took more damage from other sources.And that is why cherry-picking both highs and lows doesn't work in a vacuum. You take the whole as a whole and debate from there., you find the consistency not just the highball, and you work from there. it is my most people disagree with your assessments, because they know it's cherry-picked nonsense. It's why your 30mm Gatling gun ammunition calculation assumption was utter bullshit, because he had actual factual numbers to prove you wrong.
And you'd again be wrong, because you don't get to decide that in a vacuum, only the thread-starter decides that kind of scrutiny. If you want to debate solely with your own metrics, make the damn threads yourself, instead of hijacking ones others have.
When you're biased and not objective, you often miss key statements made by others.
I already addressed the RPG vs. her legs scene - there are no contradictions. She couldn't lift the helicopter off herself, so she chose to rip her legs free. The RPG never struck her leg joints. In fact, it seemed to do significant damage to her shoulder. So the claim that it didn't damage her isn't true.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Surely it is then simple?Bone needs about 10x more energy to cut compared to skin (let's assume Rulk's skin and bones are relatively the same i.e. when human Harrison Ford becomes Rulk, his skin and bones both amp up).
Is Namor more than 10x stronger than Sam Wilson?
Then there's the issue of assuming pure vibranium is as strong as Rulk's bones.
We know that Rulk's skin is comparable to Black Panther's armor when it comes to feats of conventional weaponry (armor-piercing bullets, explosions, etc.), meaning both are significantly stronger than steel.
For a material to cut through something (with sufficient force) and not just scratch or leave marks, it needs to be AT LEAST slightly harder than the material it's cutting through.
So, pure vibranium is at least a little tougher than Rulk's skin - that much is clear. But since bone, especially skull bone, is vastly tougher than skin, we can't say for sure that pure vibranium is stronger than Rulk's skull bone without actual feats to compare and prove it.
Originally posted by RobtardThe claws may have scratched Cap's shield, or they may have only scratched the coating. That scene needs a closer examination.
BP's claws are made of vibranium and they damaged Cap's shied. So we know vibranium can damage vibranium.Prove Wakandan ship exteriors are made of this "alloy" you invented and not vibranium? It's not like Wakanda has a shortage of the stuff.
You've dodge again in proving Red Hulk's skull is stronger than pure vibranium. Go on, prove it.
Assuming the claws actually scratched the shield itself and not just the coating, materials of equal hardness can leave marks on each other, but that doesn't mean you could take a steel sword and stab through a steel shield. The sword would bend or break before that could happen.
Originally posted by h1a8
When you're biased and not objective, you often miss key statements made by others.I already addressed the RPG vs. her legs scene - there are no contradictions. She couldn't lift the helicopter off herself, so she chose to rip her legs free. The RPG never struck her leg joints. In fact, it seemed to do significant damage to her shoulder. So the claim that it didn't damage her isn't true.
Originally posted by h1a8
In fact, it seemed to do significant damage to her shoulder. So the claim that it didn't damage her isn't true.
Originally posted by h1a8
significant damage to her shoulder.
That entire sequence of "significant damage"
Damage she instantly heals from if there was damage at all beyond the delicate externals of the plasma cannon. Lets add a machine healing factor to her abilities.
VS
Apparently not significant damage...?
Remind me again who does not cherry pick the low ends? Mr. "Oh her legs broke from not being able to lift a helicopter" h1a8.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... Mr. "I don't do low ends" himself, h1a8.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That entire sequence of "significant damage"Damage she instantly heals from if there was damage at all beyond the delicate externals of the plasma cannon. Lets add a machine healing factor to her abilities.
[B]VS
Apparently not significant damage...?
Remind me again who does not cherry pick the low ends? Mr. "Oh her legs broke from not being able to lift a helicopter" h1a8.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... Mr. "I don't do low ends" himself, h1a8. [/B]
I don't understand your point. Yes, she can heal from damage. And?
Are you putting words in my mouth? I never said that.
I already explained that I don't cherry-pick showings that contradict higher feats, and you haven't proven otherwise. If you want to continue this discussion about U Predator and T-X, take it to the other thread instead of derailing this one.
Originally posted by h1a8
I don't understand your point. Yes, she can heal from damage. And?
Yes, heal so instantly as to be rendered absolutely pointless.
Originally posted by h1a8
Are you putting words in my mouth? I never said that.
Originally posted by h1a8
Its joints aren't as strong, as it was trapped under a 3.5-5 ton Chopa and had to rip its own legs off to escape instead of lifting the Chopa off. If it had the strength to tear itself apart, then so does the UP.
Wanna try again champ?
Originally posted by h1a8
I already explained that I don't cherry-pick showings that contradict higher feats, and you haven't proven otherwise. If you want to continue this discussion about U Predator and T-X, take it to the other thread instead of derailing this one.
It is literally the debating pattern you take in every thread, I'm explaining your pattern, don't blame me for exposing your double standards.
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroI still don't see your point. Where is the double standard? Where is the cherry picking of contradictory feats?Break it down for me very simply.
Yes, heal so instantly as to be rendered absolutely pointless.Wanna try again champ?
It is literally the debating pattern you take in every thread, I'm explaining your pattern, don't blame me for exposing your double standards.
Originally posted by h1a8
It was the motor in the backpack wings, not Sam's strength. This same motor was responsible for generating enough stopping force to stop Rulk's full swing (bad writing since Sam's hands and forearm should have been shattered in the process).Then there's the issue of assuming pure vibranium is as strong as Rulk's bones.
We know that Rulk's skin is comparable to Black Panther's armor when it comes to feats of conventional weaponry (armor-piercing bullets, explosions, etc.), meaning both are significantly stronger than steel.
For a material to cut through something (with sufficient force) and not just scratch or leave marks, it needs to be [b]AT LEAST
slightly harder than the material it's cutting through.So, pure vibranium is at least a little tougher than Rulk's skin - that much is clear. But since bone, especially skull bone, is vastly tougher than skin, we can't say for sure that pure vibranium is stronger than Rulk's skull bone without actual feats to compare and prove it. [/B]
It takes 10x as much energy to cut through skull bone as it is to cut skin.
Sam cut Rulk's skin.
He would need 10x that amount of energy to cut through Rulk's skull, assuming things being equal (his wings aren't razor sharp, Vs a spear designed purely for stabbing, but nobody seems to acknowledge that).
I reckon Namor can output 10x what Sam did, and if we allow the points of a stabbing weapon to have a smaller surface area than that of a wing's edge, he would need even less than 10x what Sam output.