H/P Doomsday, Pre-Crisis Solomon Grundy, & Pre-Crisis Validus vs Gorr, WBH, & Odin

as the dictionary defines it, 'exhaust' means to lose ALL of one's power. that said, val came out of the first battle with a sun-eater completely drained, but was able to dig deep and conjure what little of his power remained a scant 4 pages later, when he saved projectra by fending off the second sun-eater.

i absolutely do not think the injured/drained validus who took on the second sun-eater was more powerful than his standard/healthy self, given the aforementioned statements+his artistic depiction during the scene(s), but that's just me.

agreeing to disagree is fine, though. after all, even if we agreed on my interpretation of the scene, it still wouldn't put val remotely close to odin's level. 👆

Originally posted by deathslash
I'm really enjoying seeing the arguments for and against Odin and Validus. This was actually a pretty good thread.

I concur.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Yes, post Odin feats 👆

So,

He's defeated Surtur several times. In JiM #99, he battles Surtur and ultimately traps him inside the earth, and draws upon all the electro-magnetic particles in the universe too. Surtur also admits that he cannot harm Odin.

2nd time in JiM #104. Surtur transforms into galaxy-busting energy, and Thor with a single swing of Odin's sword owned Surtur easily. (should be noted that Surtur's defeat was specifically attributed to Odin's sword, all Thor did was swing it).

3rd time in Thor #177: After Odin survives the dimension of death (after which he came off at half power, because as Thor #188 reveals, Hela sliced a portion of Odin's soul which later became "infinity" while he was in her dimension, and that was before Odin confronted Surtur), then goes on to defeat Surtur while at half power.

4th time in Thor #349. Odin and his 2 brothers merge together to defeat Surtur w/ twilight sword, and they destroy the sword .Note that it was revealed in that same comic, that his 2 brothers later sacrificed themselves and empowered Odin to create the Odin-power which we all know (so basically, current Odin = Odin + his brothers when they were young), so the Odin with his 2 brothers destroying the twilight sword (which btw, was capable of warping all reality in the first arc of Avengers v3) is a feat that can be attributed to current Odin. And it's confirmed in Thor #353 as well. (note, that happened after we were shown Surtur destroying a galaxy while forging the sword in Thor #337, and was regarded as a universal threat if he got his hands on the eternal flame

In Thor #400, Odin absorbed Surtur (though that was after he was defeated)

Thor v3 #7: Odin pretty much battles Surtur everyday in some dimensional limbo after he perished in Thor v2 #40 at the hands of Surtur.

JiM #98: Defeats Ymir, who was shown to be Surtur's equal in Avengers v1 #61 and in Thor #425.

Thor #144-145: Battles Forsung across the universe, destroying stars and planets across the whole cosmos, and their battle was also elevated beyond time and space (Thor v2 retelling confirms this).

Thor #184-188: fought Infinity, in a battle which destroyed galaxies. And easily repaired the damage afterwards. The official index explicitly states that he restored the whole universe, which gives us an idea just how destructive their battle was. And it should be noted that Infinity was basically a portion of Odin. And it's later revealed in Quasar #19 reveals that Odin actually tapped into the abstract Infinity's power in that instance too.

JiM #513: Odin's battle with Seth destroyed many galaxies and was waged on every plane of existence.

The Mangog instances have already been mentioned, though ill repeat the one in Thor #198 where Odin cut Mangog from his power source while he possessed the Odin sword which was confirmed as a universe buster at that time period (JiM #117, Thor #127, 154-157, 184-188, 249-250 all confirm it).

Thor Annual #5: Odin and his brothers create the whole Asgardian dimension, and the countless stars (note: current Odin alone should be able to do that, since it was later revealed that Odin's brothers sacrificed themselves to imbue Odin with Odin-power, though that wasn't until #349 so it's questionable; but even still, creating 1/3 of a universe is still impressive).

Odin was defeating Uthana Thoth in Thor #620 and would have had it not been for Thela's intervention; same Uthana Thoth who was confirmed to will their universe to live (his universe was dying, and he willed it to be alive, it was revealed that if he let's go, it'll collapse).

Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while.

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Recently in OS (Thor & Loki), Odin was revealed to have cut the tenth realm entirely from the Yggdrasil tree and erase any memory of it.

There are more showings for him which can put him above Validus, but those do for sure.

Take ONE showing out of all those, and it's better than anything Validus has done. Ever.

PS. If you need any scans, let me know.

Originally posted by operator616
Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while.

confirmation:
http://i.imgur.com/pk3gVy7.jpg

either way, stalemating galactus for as long as odin did beforehand--heck, even briefly KO'ing a slightly wounded galactus--is far beyond anything val has done. val's 'brickness' can only get him so far against an opponent as powerful(and as versatile) as odin. 👆

Originally posted by operator616

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Akin to Owen shunting/directing Beyonder's energies to another space.
Of course, we know Owen was not able to actually deflect/manipulate B's power,
especially not in his condition when said task was performed.

That aside, it's true they were stated to be universal energies
yet the fire couldn't even destroy the realm of Asgard-Space. (which was still a pocket at the time)

I don't know.

It was outright stated that only Odin could control/contain such powerful energies and it said he "negated" them.

I mean he exploded, and instead of killing everyone, Odin directed them into Asgard were no damage was done.

No, Asgard Space, the home realm of Asgardians, was firmly confirmed to be a fully fledged Universe by then.

And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure.

http://i.imgur.com/WwbotHm.jpg

Originally posted by operator616
So,

He's defeated Surtur several times. In JiM #99, he battles Surtur and ultimately traps him inside the earth, and draws upon all the electro-magnetic particles in the universe too. Surtur also admits that he cannot harm Odin.

2nd time in JiM #104. Surtur transforms into galaxy-busting energy, and Thor with a single swing of Odin's sword owned Surtur easily. (should be noted that Surtur's defeat was specifically attributed to Odin's sword, all Thor did was swing it).

3rd time in Thor #177: After Odin survives the dimension of death (after which he came off at half power, because as Thor #188 reveals, Hela sliced a portion of Odin's soul which later became "infinity" while he was in her dimension, and that was before Odin confronted Surtur), then goes on to defeat Surtur while at half power.

4th time in Thor #349. Odin and his 2 brothers merge together to defeat Surtur w/ twilight sword, and they destroy the sword .Note that it was revealed in that same comic, that his 2 brothers later sacrificed themselves and empowered Odin to create the Odin-power which we all know (so basically, current Odin = Odin + his brothers when they were young), so the Odin with his 2 brothers destroying the twilight sword (which btw, was capable of warping all reality in the first arc of Avengers v3) is a feat that can be attributed to current Odin. And it's confirmed in Thor #353 as well. (note, that happened after we were shown Surtur destroying a galaxy while forging the sword in Thor #337, and was regarded as a universal threat if he got his hands on the eternal flame

In Thor #400, Odin absorbed Surtur (though that was after he was defeated)

Thor v3 #7: Odin pretty much battles Surtur everyday in some dimensional limbo after he perished in Thor v2 #40 at the hands of Surtur.

JiM #98: Defeats Ymir, who was shown to be Surtur's equal in Avengers v1 #61 and in Thor #425.

Thor #144-145: Battles Forsung across the universe, destroying stars and planets across the whole cosmos, and their battle was also elevated beyond time and space (Thor v2 retelling confirms this).

Thor #184-188: fought Infinity, in a battle which destroyed galaxies. And easily repaired the damage afterwards. The official index explicitly states that he restored the whole universe, which gives us an idea just how destructive their battle was. And it should be noted that Infinity was basically a portion of Odin. And it's later revealed in Quasar #19 reveals that Odin actually tapped into the abstract Infinity's power in that instance too.

JiM #513: Odin's battle with Seth destroyed many galaxies and was waged on every plane of existence.

The Mangog instances have already been mentioned, though ill repeat the one in Thor #198 where Odin cut Mangog from his power source while he possessed the Odin sword which was confirmed as a universe buster at that time period (JiM #117, Thor #127, 154-157, 184-188, 249-250 all confirm it).

Thor Annual #5: Odin and his brothers create the whole Asgardian dimension, and the countless stars (note: current Odin alone should be able to do that, since it was later revealed that Odin's brothers sacrificed themselves to imbue Odin with Odin-power, though that wasn't until #349 so it's questionable; but even still, creating 1/3 of a universe is still impressive).

Odin was defeating Uthana Thoth in Thor #620 and would have had it not been for Thela's intervention; same Uthana Thoth who was confirmed to will their universe to live (his universe was dying, and he willed it to be alive, it was revealed that if he let's go, it'll collapse).

Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while.

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Recently in OS (Thor & Loki), Odin was revealed to have cut the tenth realm entirely from the Yggdrasil tree and erase any memory of it.

There are more showings for him which can put him above Validus, but those do for sure.

Take [B]ONE showing out of all those, and it's better than anything Validus has done. Ever.

PS. If you need any scans, let me know. [/B]

And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

It was outright stated that only Odin could control/contain such powerful energies and it said he "negated" them.

I mean he exploded, and instead of killing everyone, Odin directed them into Asgard were no damage was done.

This is what I got from that particular story, if thing's have changed since, that's another tale.

1) All the power Surtur collected wasn't enough to burn the other dimension, known as the "Sea of Space" or "Asgard-Space."
2) Surtur nor Odin ever acted on an actual "Universal" scale in this arc.
3) Odin never affected any Eternity and/or any Universe's Space-Time.
4) Odin never blocked/contained Surtur's fire. Odin did shunt them like Owen shunted Beyonder's energies.

The Feat:

5) Odin was able to open a Conduit and shunt Surtur's fire into the the dimension containing Asgard.

---------------------------------------------------

Imo had Odin negated the fires he wouldn't have to direct them through the portal where they were still burning.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

No, Asgard Space, the home realm of Asgardians,
was firmly confirmed to be a fully fledged Universe by then.

Although it doesn't matter much since it didn't burn it all up be it a pocket of full universe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Galan007
#5, you mean? if so, that wasn't long after thor had 'wounded' galactus with this cheap-shot:
http://i.imgur.com/QV5nChq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i4ekWlU.jpg

confirmation:
http://i.imgur.com/pk3gVy7.jpg

Right, i was 1 issue off, my mistake.

Meh. Thor basically made a small crack. Considering that Odin and Galactus were still stalemating each other even after Thor's cheap-shot, id say Thor's attack did not do any significant damage.

Originally posted by Galan007

either way, stalemating galactus for as long as odin did beforehand--heck, even briefly KO'ing a slightly wounded galactus--is far beyond anything val has done. val's 'brickness' can only get him so far against an opponent as powerful(and as versatile) as odin. 👆

Pretty much. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/y6efrFj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WwbotHm.jpg

I don't think that's what rage was referring to.

Surtur was a universal power, but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus. But when the nexus exploitation was denied to him, Surtur was still a threat to all the nine realms. Here's the scan he was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/tCDQZq1.jpg?1

And it's confirmed in the retelling of the next issue:

http://i.imgur.com/zJW0E4R.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there friend. I didn't see Odin actually "deflect" those energies,
I believe Odin only shunted/directed the energies to Asgard-Space through a portal.
(I recall the energies touching nothing, cause they were shunted quickly after being released)
... meh, perhaps it could be interpreted as some form of manipulation,
but it does not mean Odin over-powered those energies imo.

Akin to Owen shunting/directing Beyonder's energies to another space.
Of course, we know Owen was not able to actually deflect/manipulate B's power,
especially not in his condition when said task was performed.

That aside, it's true they were stated to be universal energies
yet the fire couldn't even destroy the realm of Asgard-Space. (which was still a pocket at the time)

I don't know.

How is it not a manipulation if Odin outright took control of those energies and manipulated them to a specific location?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A good one to mention is that when Surtur and Seth were running amok and Odin basically split his powers between the energies of Asgard and his Odinpower within to give to Thor and himself and they both physically engaged Seth/Surtur.

And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.

Yeah. And im pretty sure it was an amped Seth, who's absorbed the power of several egyptian gods. And even before he did that, Seth has been shown/stated to drain stars prior to that, while unamped.

Originally posted by Mr Master

You're a true debater, so I believe you, but can I have some proof?

Although it doesn't matter much since it didn't burn it all up be it a pocket of full universe.

It was stated. But as we both know when they were released,
they didn't even burn up all of Asgard's dimension.

They've been described as being fully formed universes before the everythng burns arc.

http://i.imgur.com/kab1nFr.jpg

This is Thor #616 (part of The World Eaters arc). 2010.

And that's also at that same time period.

Originally posted by operator616
I don't think that's what rage was referring to.

Surtur was a universal power, but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus. But when the nexus exploitation was denied to him, Surtur was still a threat to all the nine realms. Here's the scan he was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/tCDQZq1.jpg?1

And it's confirmed in the retelling of the next issue:

http://i.imgur.com/zJW0E4R.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg34.jpg

And what the Nine Worlds meant
"It wasn't one world we had saved. It was all worlds. It wasn't one reality. It was all realities."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg37.jpg

"all of creation destroyed"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg29.jpg

Basically, if Surtur's energy being released was going to destroy the nine realms, it was going to do a lot of damage to say the least. Pretty uber for Odin to casually manipulate that.

Also, that Thor 616 scan says there are more universes inside the nine worlds as well.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/Thor616-007.jpg

Which is backed up by Thor stating that thousands of realities are being smashed into each other as the Nine Worlds are being attacked:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg21.jpg

So if Surtur was indeed going to destroy the Nine Worlds in full, then there's a good chance it was going to extend beyond that to the "hidden universes". Though it's a bit of a stretch, but there's evidence to suggest.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Here's another threat to the Nine Worlds as Enchantress was chopping at the Worldtree
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg30.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg31.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg34.jpg

And what the Nine Worlds meant
"It wasn't one world we had saved. It was all worlds. It wasn't one reality. It was all realities."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg37.jpg

"all of creation destroyed"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg29.jpg

Basically, if Surtur's energy being released was going to destroy the nine realms, it was going to do a lot of damage to say the least. Pretty uber for Odin to casually manipulate that.

Also, that Thor 616 scan says there are more universes inside the nine worlds as well.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/Thor616-007.jpg

Which is backed up by Thor stating that thousands of realities are being smashed into each other as the Nine Worlds are being attacked:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg21.jpg

So if Surtur was indeed going to destroy the Nine Worlds in full, then there's a good chance it was going to extend beyond that to the "hidden universes". Though it's a bit of a stretch, but there's evidence to suggest.

That's an interesting idea, and i guess the fact that all of those are written by Fraction it's possible to make the link between all of them.

Originally posted by operator616
I don't think that's what rage was referring to.

Surtur was a universal power, but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus. But when the nexus exploitation was denied to him, Surtur was still a threat to all the nine realms. Here's the scan he was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/tCDQZq1.jpg?1

...and when surtur later commented that he sought to undo "ALL of creation" in the second scan i posted, he was undoubtedly referencing ALL realitIES/universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/WwbotHm.jpg

so yes, i am well aware that surtur became a multiversal threat. your scan solidifies the notion that he alone may have still been a threat to creation, though. 👆

Originally posted by operator616
I really like how you're using this "billions of times" literally so that you could justify the showing.

Amped Validus was stalemating it for minutes, with planetary force though:

http://i.imgur.com/CRVAb98.jpg

And you'll notice that amped Persuader's axe (which is equal to Mano's touch, which at best is planet busting) outright split it.

So that ought to help you understand that it wasn't literally billions of times. Though it did dwarf them. And it's still low skyfather at best.

You realize that the fact that the SE has a weakness in its nucleus (which is its core) is irrelevant here? Because Tharok specifically mentioned that the bomb will absorb all its power, so Superboy would be essentially tanking all its power. Same conclusion, Superboy's durability is apparently greater than SE's.

Here's a superman comic (pre-ZH), another SE of the original's caliber, where Wildfire, Lightning Lad and Superman blast their way through SE and hold their own, until they detonate it (and my problem isn't with the detonation, so don't come at me saying that "it's nucleus" it's with them holding their own and blasting it):

http://i.imgur.com/EBTsyyL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lgEJ2I9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hcyn3Kd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89TrAgd.jpg

Clearly above Odin.

No, it's just you can't counter anything, so you say that it's an excuse. We get it.

Well actually the revelation wasn't at the time of COIE, it was after a year or so after that. Though your bio is after that. But that's not the point at all. Because even before that Time Trapper was considered a peer to Darkseid (the early '87 bio, which is before the revelation of Trapper's pocket, says that). And there, they said that his personal abilities weren't known.

With that said. You're missing the most important point. Darkseid is literally known best for GDS only. Where he was amped. That's why Infinite Man and Trapper were compared to him, since while amped he was a foe of their class.

Neither did the white witch mentioned that "not since amped Darkseid did i sense such power", she merely said Darkseid. But we know everyone is referring to GDS Darkseid. It's blatantly clear.

Though i guess Darkseid is above Odin only because of two statements comparing him to Time Trapper. Even though they're misinterpreted to begin with.

The flames was Orikal's weakness obviously. So it's weakness exploitation.

You're missing the point. You mentioned that Mangog gets felled by a punch of Thor's and then compare this to Validus no selling Superboy's punches. So you're saying that Mangog's average is getting felled by a punch of Thor right? I mean, for real?

I don't care that you don't use them.

That's really great that you think that Superboy is great than Thor and Odin combined physically. Which is just retarded. I already mentioned what Superboy's average is, and i can continue if you want, but im not gonna repeat myself. Though you're right that Mangos can't lick Validus' boots. Though we're talking about Mangog here.

My opinion are based on facts.

I do, though i can see why you think it's irrelevant. Since if it wasn't, then Validus wouldn't be comparable to Odin, which he isn't.

Doesn't mean that Mangog couldn't. Unless you think Mano is more powerful than him.

Superman traversing infinite gravity and surviving the big bang? You wouldn't happen to be referring to Action Comics #553-554 would you?

Because you do realize that he only held for a while and eventually died? It was outright stated that when Superman is subjected to the Big Bang even he could not survive:

http://i.imgur.com/2MhUdGt.jpg?1

And it's stated in the next issue that Superman disappeared and vanished (in other words, he died):

http://i.imgur.com/nnIv157.jpg

And the only way Superman was resurrected was when in the altered Earth kids recreated the hero concept and people started believing in it, which returned Superman and the Earth to normality:

http://i.imgur.com/AsTn3iM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89uyOpt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QEGtQ8d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JvxGnc1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tQiUYLy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2itr9Qm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u19CuIM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/veOU2OE.jpg

Superman couldn't survive the full big bang by any means. It was established in Showcase #61 that even Pre-Crisis Spectre can't survive the full power of the Big Bang, but you think Superman can? 😂

BA Superman was = 2/3 SA Superman though, barring the time when he let his inhibitions off in Superman #321 or some other time iirc. Since 1/3 of his strength was permanently removed. And Superboy was unofficially depowered in turn. So 3 BA Superboy level characters KOing Validus doesn't look good for him.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're a true debater, so I believe you, but can I have some proof?

You can just type the keywords "Angela Thor Marvel" in google and get all the comics pertinent to that storyline. 👆

Originally posted by a88378438
It's very cleary superman withstand big bang but after reality change ,big bang not destroy superman,but time/space change superman vanish

A statement doubting that Superman survived the big bang + the fact that he vanished says otherwise.

And Superman didn't vanish because time/space changed, because he's the one who changed it, and should have stayed alive in that altered Earth.

But anyway. Superman definitely didn't survive the full power of the big bang, he only held for a while and eventually succumbed similar to what the time sphere did. Which has consistently shown to have awful durability.

After all, this same type of time sphere which "survived" the big bang (2 times, before AC #553 we also got a AC #552 flashback to the exact same thing), was broken when it crashed into the ground in DC Comics Presents #37:

http://i.imgur.com/b7po2Te.jpg

And here are various issues from the Rip Hunter...Time Master v1 pre-Crisis series

Being blasted out of the sky by conventional anti-aircraft weaponry:

http://i.imgur.com/Wk004JM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/W6XtjZd.jpg

A random monster crashing it:

http://i.imgur.com/lgN2Uo7.jpg

another one:

http://i.imgur.com/2bz3i6Q.jpg

etc.. (there are more)

Or i could also reference showings from the Showcase v1 (late 50s Rip Hunter comics) where Time sphere was threatened by boulders, random lasers and whatnot.

And it held the exact same time before Superman "vanished"/died (had the time sphere not been consistently shown to have terrible durability i wouldn't be bringing this up....but fact is, it has). Proving that holding temporarily is not that big of a feat (because it's not like they were at the very heart of it anyway).

Originally posted by operator616

Surtur was a universal power

Originally posted by operator616

but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus.

Originally posted by operator616

How is it not a manipulation if Odin outright took control of those energies and manipulated them to a specific location?

Like Owen did to Beyonder's power. But I'm sure we both agree Owen was not > B at the time. (pre/or post)