Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To summarize amputation and disinfection are not interchangeable terms in the slightest. Surgery is an invasive procedure that usually involves the removal or the cutting of a patient’s tissue. Disinfection is a process to cleanse an area from infection by removing bacteria from an infection site. Methods to achieve this can involve temperature variation, irradiation, chemicals, antiseptics/antibiotics etc. It is not an invasive procedure, it is not surgery. It can however play a part of the treatment process. Surgeons clean the infection site prior to surgery. However one does not equate to the other.

With this in mind, the viewpoint that the terms disinfect and amputate refer to the same thing in the scene is conclusively incorrect. There is no getting around that.

Simply from the response we get to Jean's wonderfully enigmatic and lofty prose, "... I had to amputate the future," we get the Phoenix Force's response, "Phoenix disinfection complete." There you go. It's that damn easy and that damn unequivocable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean questions whether the surgery is complete. After her reboot at the hands of Martha, she is still disoriented. She doesn’t know if that’s all she had to do.

Over the next page or so, reality begins to fade out at which point Jean states she had to amputate the future because the bacterial colony went rogue(the fade out could be explained by this statement)

This is in line with a typical surgical process of this nature. The area has been disinfected (Jean removed the essence of Sublime) the infection site was too greatly damaged; therefore she amputated the affected part of the patient ( the timeline)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your own handbook entry you’ve presented as evidence confirms that she severed the HCT future from the multiverse;(as does marvunapp.com http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mkraancrystal.htm ) it’s possible that the fade out of the HCT reality she was standing in is an artistic depiction of this. Furthermore I have established that the terms disinfection and amputate are not interchangeable as they mean different things and are both separate steps in the treatment process.

And now instead of looking at the primary material before us, where Jean and the PF confirm that the Sublime disinfection and the amputation of the future was essentially the same... and instead of looking at the secondary source material from the official handbook that also equates the two, you're forced to resort to some unofficial fanmade database to support your interpretation. Yes, it is fanmade. It is a fantastic compilation. But it is not official. You need only look at the frontpage to figure that out: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With that in mind it is irrelevant if you don’t understand exactly why she did it. Just accept the fact that she stated she did it, the fade out on panel indicates she did it, the subsequent comments from the Phoenix Consciousness and Quentin telling her to grow a new future to replace the one she cut away supports the fact that she did it and finally the handbook confirms she did it. You being unsure of what power she used to do it or being sceptical of the artistic depiction of it does not change that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

He stated that Galactus was transformed by the energies of creation. That is an absolute. What he was not setting in stone, but was instead leaving up to the listener was what term they wanted to refer to those energies as. "Call it the Big Bang or the Phoenix Force what have you". In other words whatever term you wish to apply.

Its like me saying the biggest cat in North America is the cougar. Call it the mountain lion or puma what have you i.e its up to you.

So my point stands.

Reed Richards equated the Force to the energies of creation.

Thankfully later Reed Richards witnessed the original Big Bang,
and it had nothing to do with Phoenix.

Not the energies, the fires, the explosion ... not even the spark, nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Omission does not equate to retcon. Especially when that interpretation brought up in that single F4 arc is unsupported by any other story arc or in any other marvel publication. Its just one writers interpretation.

100% Canon! .. 🙂

As the Editor's point out in the questionnaire section:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

There are many other scans from various titles giving the Phoenix credit for that role.
Be objective.
Dont be so selective in which equally valid on panel accounts you choose to acknowledge.

Reed is the only one who mistakingly alluded to the idea.

Watcher thought Phoenix was the "spark" that ignites it.

Both accounts were completely wrong.

Show me one scan that depicts Phoenix actually creating "The" Big Bang ... on panel.

I'll tell ya what, or even ... any Big Bang at all.

How about creating a Pocket Universe? No? ... How about creating a Galaxy?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Of course it alludes to the point. You have many scans from various different titles stating the Phoenix to be the energies of creation from which life comes from and then this Excalibur scan shows the Phoenix to be the energies of the Big Bang turned sentient.

I don't know where you're reading that from, but it isn't this scan:

No where in that scan does it say,
or allude to the idea that Phoenix is the energies of the Big Bang.

Phoenix was a Force of the Universe, like all the Concepts,
it was formless energy, and just was, because that's what all the Concepts are,
until they take a form, (avatar) a visual representation like an M-Body.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

This is how i came into being refers to the sentience of the Force,
because prior to it awakening to reality,
it was just the formless energies of the Big Bang.

It was just formless energy that served a universal purpose, like all the Concepts.

The Fire-Bird, is basically a form of M-Body the Force uses.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before we start, let’s establish a few things which are fundamental to this debate.

[B]Definitions

Surgery-

Surgery is a medical technology consisting of a physical intervention on tissues. As a general rule, a procedure is considered surgical when it involves cutting of a patient's tissues or closure of a previously sustained wound.

Disinfection-

To cleanse so as to destroy or prevent the growth of disease-carrying microorganisms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinfect#Phenolics

http://www.microbiologytext.com/index.php?module=Book&func=displayarticlesinchapter&chap_id=56

Amputation-

A procedure where a surgeon removes a limb, or part of a limb, that is no longer useful to you, is causing you great pain, or is threatening your health because of extensive infection.

Severe injury or disease can sometimes damage portions of the body beyond their capacity to regenerate or heal. Infection can spread through your body and threaten your life. The infection sites provide a stronghold to dangerous bacteria, which can spread to other parts of the body. When there is no hope that damaged or infected tissue can be restored to its healthy state, an amputation might be necessary to protect the rest of the body from the spreading of infection. Physicians consider amputation a last resort.

http://www.metrohealth.org/body.cfm?id=1453

http://health.howstuffworks.com/amputation.htm/printable

To summarize amputation and disinfection are not interchangeable terms in the slightest. Surgery is an invasive procedure that usually involves the removal or the cutting of a patient’s tissue. Disinfection is a process to cleanse an area from infection by removing bacteria from an infection site. Methods to achieve this can involve temperature variation, irradiation, chemicals, antiseptics/antibiotics etc. It is not an invasive procedure, it is not surgery. It can however play a part of the treatment process. Surgeons clean the infection site prior to surgery. However one does not equate to the other.

With this in mind, the viewpoint that the terms disinfect and amputate refer to the same thing in the scene is conclusively incorrect. There is no getting around that. [/B]

Good lord.

You're really grasping at straws, huh?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Reborn.

Not created. Reborn.

You have to have existed previously to be reborn Mr. Master.

And?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Every creation cycle it is reverted to formless energies at the end and reborn during the Big Bang event. According to Phoenix mythology it’s the Forces representation in reality, be it the firebird avatar or a host that perpetuates this cycle. So in effect it is responsible for its own death and rebirth n the natural scheme of things.

Or any Big Bang at all.

Unless you have proof, please stop claiming otherwise,
especially when you already SAW the Alien Entity creating the "Spark"
and initiating the Big Bang into motion, On Panel, it happened, visually depicted.

Perhaps it related to Phoenix in theory once,
after 2006, that theory was shattered, nulled.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

There are a variety of accounts linking the Phoenix to the Big Bang AFTER that single interpretation within F4.

That F4 interpretation has no support before or after its publication. On top of that the Watchers comments came AFTER that publication just last year in 2006. Whereas i think you'll find this F4 are began in F4 #530 until F4 #532. That’s October 2005 until December 2005

The Alien Entity actually did it.

Talk vs Action ... you choose. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Phoenix has been stated to have the role on panel various times by reputable characters such as Eternity, the Watcher, the Stranger, Death and even by writers. That is enough for the sake of debate.

Post the scans, oh, and of the writers too.

Although in the end ... Action >>> Talk (hyperbole)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You want to believe that this Entity is responsible instead?

That’s your prerogative. Each to their own.

Supported in your Marvel.com link.

The Alien Entity stood in the void before the Big Bang (on panel)
the Alien Entity created the "Spark" that ignites creation with a thought (on panel)
The Alien Entity personally sparked the Big Bang with his own hands (on panel)
The Alien Entity indeed literally harnessed the energies of creation (on panel)
The Alien Entity (using Reed's mind as a guide) created the Marvel Universe and all its history.
The Alien Entity merged with the fires/engines of creation, past, present & future (on panel)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

However my interpretation is both more consistently supported and more recently supported on panel than yours, therefore you can't state it to be a fact that the Phoenix does not have that role. Just accept that it’s also been attributed that role and leave it at that.

[QUOTE=11007165]Originally posted by GalacticStorm

It’s up to Marvel to give further clarification,
not for you to dictate what’s right and wrong
when it’s stated quite clearly on panel.

Sise-Neg did it in 72'
Entropy/Genis did it in 02'
Thanos/THOTI did it in 03'
Alien Entity did it in 06'

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Here’s a quote from marvel.com that I think is very relevant here:

Now let’s leave it at that.

That link, you're own link,
literally cements the Alien Entity's on panel display as 100% Canon.

(it's even the picture of the Alien Entity that represents the page at the top) 😂

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

"The Beginnings of the Universe:"

"When the exact combination of cosmic rays was detected again,
Richards did, in fact, contact an alien being.
Richards and the Entity found themselves adrift in time and space,
drawn back by their inquisitiveness to the beginnings of the universe.
The question was how did existence come from non-existence—
the question was the fire, born of their need to understand,
and it became the spark that lit the fire of creation.
The Entity merged with the energies and forces that became creation ..."

............................................................................................................

Notice how the other 3 I mentioned (Sise/Entropy/Thanos) are referenced,
nothing about Phoenix is mentioned, even hinted, anywhere in this page,
even in the story that describes Galactus' involvement at the beginning of the first creation.

Nothing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Oh jebus. Of course in the colloquial sense of the terms they are not interchangeable. But when you are dealing with the enigmatic and colorful speech that Jean and the Phoenix Force use when talking to each other, speech that could rightly be characterized as a conversation between two sides of a single consciousness, th///at make////s excess/////ive use of dash////es, then yes they are interchangeable. Especially when you have this particular panel:

Simply from the response we get to Jean's wonderfully enigmatic and lofty prose, "... I had to amputate the future," we get the Phoenix Force's response, "Phoenix disinfection complete." There you go. It's that damn easy and that damn unequivocable.

In other words... 1) I should just ignore how nothing of what you say makes sense (telekinesis on a future???); 2) there is no precedent for what you assert happened... ever; 3) how the most momentous feats outside of Mxy and THOTU are done off-panel; 4 how on-panel conversations between the main players actually contradicts your interpretation; and 4) how secondary (official, not fan-made) secondary sources ALSO contradict you. The only thing these things aren't changing is your opinion. Which would give most people due cause to reconsider their opinions.

As it stands,
your personal motivations prevent you from doing this and it's just fine.
But don't expect me to swallow the self-serving logic
you so freely wield in the face fo the plain presentation of the comic.

GS why are you doing this....the WCP can't beat the IG so wat r u aruging for?

So GS left for a little bit and the thread died. I was all like...

Then I come back and see the thread on top again. I knew he was back.

LMAO, oh man this thread is gold.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
So GS left for a little bit and the thread died. I was all like...

Then I come back and see the thread on top again. I knew he was back.

crylaugh

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
So GS left for a little bit and the thread died. I was all like...

Then I come back and see the thread on top again. I knew he was back.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh jebus. Of course in the colloquial sense of the terms they are not interchangeable. But when you are dealing with the enigmatic and colorful speech that Jean and the Phoenix Force use when talking to each other, speech that could rightly be characterized as a conversation between two sides of a single consciousness, th///at make////s excess/////ive use of dash////es, then yes they are interchangeable. Especially when you have this particular panel:

So basically your argument is, that the Phoenix consciousness is talking weird and I find its statements hard to comprehend therefore I can put my assumptions out there as fact amidst the confusion. 😬

The Force is speaking like a computer intelligence (think the Borg from Star Trek or even the Phalanx) I'll give you that, but nowhere does it use words in the wrong context. The speech is hardly colorful or verbose, if anything its just disjointed. If you have read the story arc and are familiar with the Phoenix mythos then it’s not hard to decipher.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Simply from the response we get to Jean's wonderfully enigmatic and lofty prose, "... I had to amputate the future," we get the Phoenix Force's response, "Phoenix disinfection complete." There you go. It's that damn easy and that damn unequivocable.
In response to Jean's proclamation that she "had to amputate the future," the Phoenix Force confirms "disinfection complete." You yourself have just pretty much equated an amputation with a disinfection. And whether you try to quibble over nuances is irrelevant. The Phoenix Force isn't.

One of the Phoenix's roles is to perpetuate evolution. Sublime brought stagnancy and aimed to dominate all life forms. Therefore it was Jeans duty to end his threat by removing him from the picture. That was the very reason the Force manifested within Jean again.

This was called "the disinfection period". The time from when the Force had chosen to act to remove this threat to evolution up until it achieved this end:

New X-men 133

“The new emergency senate has decreed the withdrawal of all Shi’ar citizens from planet earth during the disinfection period…”

“The Phoenix has hatched and she is merciless”

Jean however got caught up in her life as a human. She got distracted by her marriage troubles and as a result, she got killed by Sublime inhabiting Xorneto’s body. Here Comes Tomorrow was her fault. She should have ended the threat of Sublime back in 616

The Phoenix’s response to Jean (“Disinfection successful”) could either have been in response to her extraction of Sublime on the previous page or a reference to the fact that all of her actions up until that point had now seen the threat of Sublime removed, therefore she had succeeded in neutralizing the threat she was sent to deal with. “Disinfection successful”

It is your assumption that it meant that her reference to amputating the future was just her way of referring to how she removed some bacteria from Beast. It is an assumption that does not make sense given the fact that:

Amputation and disinfection by their very definitions are not interchangeable as you would claim.

Removing bacteria from Beast would not have removed the HCT timeline as the Consciousness and Quentin Quire confirm she did. (The HCT future was spawned by Scott’s reaction to Emma 150 years in the past. Removing bacteria 150 years after that point of divergence would not suddenly make 150 years of timeline disappear.)

The handbooks support this point and say she severed the timeline from the multiverse:

All New Official Handbook Update 1

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't know what you're talking about. This is the only relevant text from the handbook entry that I've been using. No mention of severing a future:

And now instead of looking at the primary material before us, where Jean and the PF confirm that the Sublime disinfection and the amputation of the future was essentially the same... and instead of looking at the secondary source material from the official handbook that also equates the two, you're forced to resort to some unofficial fanmade database to support your interpretation. Yes, it is fanmade. It is a fantastic compilation. But it is not official. You need only look at the frontpage to figure that out: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/

As you can now see and I have stated throughout this thread, there is a handbook entry that states that Jean severed the future from the multiverse, so half of this is irrelevant.

On top of that, can you please explain to me how 150 years of timeline can disappear by Jean removing bacteria from Beast?

As I’ve already explained, the Forces comment was not verification that the action of removing bacteria from Beast equated to amputating the HCT future.

Given that I’ve already highlighted in this thread comments from the Force and Quentin which confirmed Jean actually did amputate HCT and the fact that the handbook states she did as well, can you please tell us all how you believe extracting bacteria from Beast achieved this end? Just how did removing bacteria 150 years after the point of divergence make that divergent timeline disappear?

With regards to marvunapp, on the first page of nearly every handbook that’s come out in the last few years you will see a thank you from Marvel to marvunapp as some of the makers of that site write the handbook.

If you look at the scan of the handbook I’ve provided and then look at the marvunapp page I linked to, you’ll see that info is identical.

Either way the point is irrelevant as I have provided official confirmation.

Jean said she amputated the future, subsequent confirmation came from other characters talking of how she needed to grow a new future to replace the one she had just cut away, and then the point was confirmed in a handbook entry.

It really shouldn’t be debatable mate.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In other words... [b]1) I should just ignore how nothing of what you say makes sense (telekinesis on a future???); 2) there is no precedent for what you assert happened... ever; 3) how the most momentous feats outside of Mxy and THOTU are done off-panel; 4 how on-panel conversations between the main players actually contradicts your interpretation; and 4) how secondary (official, not fan-made) secondary sources ALSO contradict you. The only thing these things aren't changing is your opinion. Which would give most people due cause to reconsider their opinions. As it stands, your personal motivations prevent you from doing this and it's just fine. But don't expect me to swallow the self-serving logic you so freely wield in the face fo the plain presentation of the comic. [/B]

1) I’ve already made a long post a few pages back dedicated to why I believe the amputation was attributed to TK. In the same post I went on to say I didn’t know exactly if that was the power that was used for the feat however it was through some application of power that Jean possesses as Phoenix and the point has been officially confirmed. So why you’re blabbing on about the whole TK thing I don’t know. You don’t think it was TK then that’s fine. However Jean did amputate the future and as I’ve shown that’s not debatable.

2) Someone has got to be the first to pull off a feat and given the Phoenix’s previous feats and stated role, it makes it totally feasible. HCT was never supposed to exist, so if we see 616 as a plant, with HCT the rotten and diseased upper stem, for the timeline to flourish, the damaged part had to be cut off. Then a new stem could be encouraged to grow in its place.

3) Off panel? I’m sorry if you think the artistic depiction wasn’t clear enough, but as Jean states that she had to amputate the future, the HCT reality she was standing in fades away from around her. It’s highly possible that is how the artist chose to indicate it to us readers. Don’t like it? Not my problem. On panel statements and a bio make your contrary opinion irrelevant.

4) I have a bio mate. One to support the amputation feat and one to support the whole universe in the hand issue. Not one of them contradicts me. What you need to learn to accept is that omission does not mean something is not the case. Your bio was the first to come out on the subject and it doesn’t mention the amputation at all, neither does it refer to Jeans universe in the hand feat. Months later a separate bio comes out referencing the amputation of the future and months after that Jeans abilities section is updated to talk of how she can manipulate the atoms of an entire universe at once. All of those points can be interpreted on panel and yet they’re not all featured in every bio. Look at the whole picture. Don’t stick to your single bio because you feel it favors your opinion.

The difference between us is that in your single bio, I’m NOT contradicted. Part of my interpretation just isn’t mentioned. That however is understandable as bios can only briefly touch on events. They are not extensive references of all occurrences. There is a big difference between omission and contradiction. I possess two bios which I have posted which BOTH contradict with your opinion on what happened.

What now? Are you going to acknowledge these discrepancies or are you going to continue to post your officially rejected opinion?

so... you type your responses on word before posting them here? srsly

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
So GS left for a little bit and the thread died. I was all like...

Then I come back and see the thread on top again. I knew he was back.