Originally posted by The Great GalenWhat does that have to do with his comment regarding Thanos? I was debating Superman vs Silver Surfer and not Thanos. So the point?
Remember you're stunt in the "superman vs Silver Surfer"thread where u low balled Supes every other post....yeah Id say this was long overdue if anything.
Originally posted by GalacticStormMr Master, with regards to the whole Phoenix is the Big Bang debate,
we'll leave that for another thread.If you want to create a thread specifically on the matter within the comic books discussion forums then be my guest and i will join you.
You honestly believe there's an debate there?
I can't believe you're going to willfully ignore the On panel artistic depiction,
and on panel statements,
that were officially corroborated by Marvel, yes,
in your own Marvel.com link it's clear:
Originally posted by Mr MasterLiterally cements the Alien Entity's on panel display as 100% Canon.
(it's even the picture of the Alien Entity that represents the page at the top) 😂
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe
"The Beginnings of the Universe:"
"When the exact combination of cosmic rays was detected again,
Richards did, in fact, contact an alien being.
Richards and the Entity found themselves adrift in time and space,
drawn back by their inquisitiveness to the beginnings of the universe.
The question was how did existence come from non-existence—
the question was the fire, born of their need to understand,
and it became the spark that lit the fire of creation.
The Entity merged with the energies and forces that became creation ..."............................................................................................................
Nothing about Phoenix is mentioned, even hinted, anywhere in this page,
even in the story that describes Galactus' involvement at the beginning of the first creation.Nothing.
Be thorough friend.
Originally posted by GalacticStormHowever we have been back and forth on this issue many a time and at the end of the day, i'm not making it up. The point is stated by a variety of characters on panel and that Excalibur scene can be interpreted as showing the Force as the Big Bang turned sentient.
You might not believe it to be the case, but the very fact that i can draw on a dozen comics stating the point should spark off something in your brain.
Try and find a comic where Phoenix is drawn sparking or creating the/a Big Bang.
Try and find a bio that even alludes to Phoenix being the Big Bang,
or even sparking it.
If Phoenix would have had
something/anything to do with the creation/destruction of the Marvel Universe,
it would've been presented in your Marvel.com link, but it wasn't. 😬
Sise-Neg was
Alien Entity was
Galactus was
Entropy/Genis was
Thanos/THOTI was
NO Phoenix, not ... a ... word.
Originally posted by GalacticStormYou may talk of how the F4 issue shows an actual on panel depiction.
I could say the same with regards to the Excalibur issue,
you just interpret it differently.
The Phoenix Force's own official bio states:
"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...
Yes, yes, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix,
and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires,
big deal,
and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
and proceeded to re-created all of it.
Alien Entity is badass. ✅
Originally posted by GalacticStormPlus i can find precedence for my interpretation of the scene in many sources both before and after its publication.
As we both know, there are many origin theorys featured in marvel publications, however few are more consistently linked to the origin of Marvel as the Phoenix.
There's only 3 accounts of the Beginning of the Universe,
according to your Marvel.com link,
and 2 of it's End, according to your Marvel.com link.
All of them took place On Panel, so they're true,
meaning they were visually/artistically depicted as happening.
No mention of your Phoenix/Excalibur scenario,
in fact,
No mention of Phoenix ... at all. 🙁
NOW This ... this is explained in detail:
*** http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe *** (your own link)
"The Beginnings of the Universe" (including the Big Bang "Spark" and all that jazz)
Again ... this is all supported in your Marvel.com link.
The Alien Entity stood in the void before the Big Bang (on panel)
the Alien Entity created the "Spark" that ignites creation with a thought (on panel)
The Alien Entity personally sparked the Big Bang with his own hands (on panel)
The Alien Entity indeed literally harnessed the energies of creation (on panel)
The Alien Entity (using Reed's mind as a guide) created the Marvel Universe and all its history. (on panel)
The Alien Entity merged with the fires/engines of creation, past, present & future (on panel)
100% Canon! ...
Also corroborated by the Editors in the FF questionnaires section, next few issues.
Originally posted by GalacticStormDont fill up this thread with this subject anymore. Make the thread.
But at-least admit, you now know what the "spark" of creation is,
where it came from,
how it works,
and who's responsible for it's purpose.
It's the Alien Entity, come on, you know it's true.
(the ONLY on panel depiction ever of the "spark" igniting the original Big Bang)
My point still stands i'm afraid. 😉
You can bait me as much as you like with the condescending tone however as i've shown over the years and as you can all see within the Phoenix Respect Thread, the Phoenix has been given on panel the role of energies of creation many a time.
I can post a dozen separate instances from different story arcs, different titles, different cosmic characters all stating the same thing.
The bio says the Phoenix was reborn in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang. Thats completely in line with the Excalibur scene highlighting how its the Big Bang turned sentient, which itself is in line with Reeds comments stating that the Big Bang is the Phoenix Force.
The Phoenix Force throughout the years has far more consistent showings within that role. If you wish to stick by your single story arc which isnt even referenced in handbooks, then be my guest. I'm content in the fact that my point has on panel support across the last two decades.
Goodnight Mr Master 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormMy point still stands i'm afraid.
You can bait me as much as you like with the condescending tone however as i've shown over the years and as you can all see within the Phoenix Respect Thread, the Phoenix has been given on panel the role of energies of creation many a time.
Not one single incident in it that depicts Phoenix creating The Big Bang,
or sparking it,
or being the energies of creation.
Heck, there's not a single incident where Phoenix even creates an Alternate Universe,
but you wanna have her creating the Marvel Universe ... funny.
Originally posted by GalacticStormI can post a dozen separate instances from different story arcs, different titles, different cosmic characters all stating the same thing.
The bio says the Phoenix was reborn in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang. Thats completely in line with the Excalibur scene highlighting how its the Big Bang turned sentient
I don't wanna accuse you of lying,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?
The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"
On Panel, that's exactly what's depicted:
Originally posted by GalacticStormwhich itself is in line
with Reeds comments stating that the Big Bang is the Phoenix Force.
whistling ... My, my.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe Phoenix Force throughout the years has far more consistent showings within that role.
If you wish to stick by your single story arc which isnt even referenced in handbooks, then be my guest. I'm content in the fact that my point has on panel support across the last two decades.
You got nerve,
you posted the Marvel.com link yourself to try and prove something other,
now you see that the Alien Entity's arc is defined in detail in that link,
you've made progress in evading even addressing it again,
ignoring it now completely.
The door doesn't swing both ways in your world.
🙂
"consistent showings within that role" ... "support across the last two decades"
Heh.
I challenge you to show us just ONE showing that depicts Phoenix creating The Big Bang,
or creating the "Spark" that ignites the Big Bang,
or having any involvement whatsoever during The Big Bang.
On Panel action only please! ..
like with the Alien Entity and the others verified by Marvel.com
Originally posted by GalacticStormGoodnight Mr Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm1) I’ve already made a long post a few pages back dedicated to why I believe the amputation was attributed to TK. In the same post I went on to say I didn’t know exactly if that was the power that was used for the feat however it was through some application of power that Jean possesses as Phoenix and the point has been officially confirmed. So why you’re blabbing on about the whole TK thing I don’t know. You don’t think it was TK then that’s fine. However Jean did amputate the future and as I’ve shown that’s not debatable.
Reality 15104 = One of countless possible futures of the Multiverse,
countless futures that have taken place before, during and after HCT.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm2) Someone has got to be the first to pull off a feat and given the Phoenix’s previous feats and stated role, it makes it totally feasible. HCT was never supposed to exist, so if we see 616 as a plant, with HCT the rotten and diseased upper stem, for the timeline to flourish, the damaged part had to be cut off. Then a new stem could be encouraged to grow in its place.
Phoenix extracted Sublime, and that's what she shifted into the WHR with,
it appears, this action amputated the alternate future of Reality 15104:
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... of ... Reality - 15104"
* "In one future" * ... countless possible futures in the Multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm3) Off panel? I’m sorry if you think the artistic depiction wasn’t clear enough, but as Jean states that she had to amputate the future, the HCT reality she was standing in fades away from around her. It’s highly possible that is how the artist chose to indicate it to us readers. Don’t like it? Not my problem. On panel statements and a bio make your contrary opinion irrelevant.
Jean shifted into the WHR with Sublime's essence,
Reality did not "fade away."
Reality faded away after Jean made Scott change his mind, at the end,
Scott's decision nullified 15104, it had nothing to do with Jean controlling atoms,
it had to do with Jean mind raping Scott
before he made the decision that created 15104 to begin with.
And now that I'm reading this more carefully,
and after looking again at the the three relevant pages,
I have to agree with OneDumbGO in his other point.
Also, according to this official Handbook,
it seems Jean was only able to this withIN the WHR,
also, Quentin said the "Consciousness" of the Force told him to tell her to hurry,
suggesting limitation with this timetable.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm4) I have a bio mate. One to support the amputation feat and one to support the whole universe in the hand issue. Not one of them contradicts me. What you need to learn to accept is that omission does not mean something is not the case. Your bio was the first to come out on the subject and it doesn’t mention the amputation at all, neither does it refer to Jeans universe in the hand feat. Months later a separate bio comes out referencing the amputation of the future and months after that Jeans abilities section is updated to talk of how she can manipulate the atoms of an entire universe at once. All of those points can be interpreted on panel and yet they’re not all featured in every bio. Look at the whole picture. Don’t stick to your single bio because you feel it favors your opinion.
So to be fair, you only have two bios that reference HCT.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My point still stands i'm afraid. 😉You can bait me as much as you like with the condescending tone however as i've shown over the years and as you can all see within the Phoenix Respect Thread, the Phoenix has been given on panel the role of energies of creation many a time.
I can post a dozen separate instances from different story arcs, different titles, different cosmic characters all stating the same thing.
The bio says the Phoenix was reborn in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang. Thats completely in line with the Excalibur scene highlighting how its the Big Bang turned sentient, which itself is in line with Reeds comments stating that the Big Bang is the Phoenix Force.
The Phoenix Force throughout the years has far more consistent showings within that role. If you wish to stick by your single story arc which isnt even referenced in handbooks, then be my guest. I'm content in the fact that my point has on panel support across the last two decades.
Goodnight Mr Master 🙂
Kind of hypocritical, given your insistence on ignoring basically every story involving the gems in favor of one throw-away line in a She-Hulk issue, no?
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe Phoenix Force itself, responds, "Phoenix disinfection successful." What is it responding to? It is responding to Jean's comment that she "had to amputate the future." This is also only two pages after Jean asks, "Surgery complete?" Which in turn followed her proclamation that she was performing a "coordinated disinfection." Which was extracting Sublime from Beast. The connection between all those terms is clear.
The Phoenix’s response to Jean (“Disinfection successful”) could either have been in response to her extraction of Sublime on the previous page or a reference to the fact that all of her actions up until that point had now seen the threat of Sublime removed, therefore she had succeeded in neutralizing the threat she was sent to deal with. “Disinfection successful”
Extracting Sublime = coordinated disinfection = surgery = amputate the future = Phoenix disinfection successful.
You're still trying to take one piece of that stream of consciousness and interpret it in the most literal sense possible. You cherry-pick sentences of handbooks that do not directly contradict your assertion as "support" for your pretenses. But you fail to notice that you are AGAIN, interpreting those words in the most literal sense possible. In doing so, you haven't offered a separate piece of evidence that supports your previous proposition. You're only saying and doing the same thing wrong, twice over.
What we both recognize is that neither of our interpretations are directly contradicted on-panel or by handbook entries. What you don't wish to recognize is that our interpretation involves far less attenuations of logic. I've listed them before, I'll list them again:
1) You don't apply telekinesis on a future, that very notion is plainly counterintuitive. You're beginning to understand that by suggesting that we don't know what power she is using. Great. Instead of rehabilitating your position, you're retreating and leaving it more muddled and vague, thereby preventing focused criticism of it. A smart move for those who don't see how evasive such logic is, but it doesn't lend support to your assertions.
2) As you used to say, there is no such precedent in Marvel for such a thing happening. This was naturally before you started retreating from such a proposition when it got turned right back onto your primary assertion. Now, you turn a whole 180 degrees and suggest, "Someone has got to be the first to pull off a feat..." Such self-serving logic does not represent a separate supportive proposition of your conclusion. It's self-concluding and thus self-serving.
3) It is still painfully obvious that such a feat is never even depicted in a single panel. It's terribly hard covering up this gaping hole in your argumentations. Now you're looking at a single panel of Jean travelling away, labelling it as "the HCT reality fading away" and hoping that will aver further criticism. Absolutely not. Within that single panel, Jean herself has already stated, "... I had to amputate the future." This is past-tense speak. Forgive me for patronizing you, but you don't speak of an action in the past tense and as being complete, if it's going on all around you in the very same panel. All she is doing in this panel is travelling away with Sublime:
Originally posted by GalacticStormI told you not to put words into my mouth. You can try to twist my words into something they're not. But that doesn't change my interpretation into an argument you find easier to poke holes in. I explained this before in a previous post. Get a clue and do not do this again.
It is your assumption that it meant that her reference to amputating the future was just her way of referring to how she removed some bacteria from Beast. It is an assumption that does not make sense given the fact that:Amputation and disinfection by their very definitions are not interchangeable as you would claim.
Removing bacteria from Beast would not have removed the HCT timeline as the Consciousness and Quentin Quire confirm she did. (The HCT future was spawned by Scott’s reaction to Emma 150 years in the past. Removing bacteria 150 years after that point of divergence would not suddenly make 150 years of timeline disappear.)
Mr Master, in that respect thread there are a number of scans which state the Phoenix Force to be the energies of creation, state it to be the power behind the stars which in turn provide the universe with energy and the sum and substance of all life, the life force of reality and the creator of stars. Those points are stated throughout that respect thread and those scans span two decades, with references to Phoenixes role made as recently as last year in both Uncanny X-men and Phoenix Warsong. With that in mind, I have no need to get caught up in a debate with you, a debate you’re trying to bait me into having. 😉
You do not dictate canon for Marvel, Marvel does. As I’ve shown, my point is stated in many a marvel publication. My point has also been stated more recently and consistently than your single story arc from 2005. If you don’t like it, then wait for a retcon. Until then you are in no position to state that Marvel comics clearly stating my point are wrong. There are many origin theories out there involving different characters, just accept that Phoenix has on panel also been given that role and leave it at that. ✅
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The Phoenix Force itself, responds, "Phoenix disinfection successful." What is it responding to? It is responding to Jean's comment that she "had to amputate the future." This is also only two pages after Jean asks, "Surgery complete?" Which in turn followed her proclamation that she was performing a "coordinated disinfection." Which was extracting Sublime from Beast. The connection between all those terms is clear.Extracting Sublime = [b]coordinated disinfection
= surgery = amputate the future = Phoenix disinfection successful.[/B]
The Force is responding to Jeans comment regarding her amputating the future, however given that in real world terms the words are not interchangeable, the fact that it is confirmed on panel and in a bio that Jean literally amputated the HCT future and the fact that you cannot eliminate 150 years of timeline by removing bacteria, you are wrong to equate the terms disinfection and amputate.
It is just as possible that the Force was referring to the fact that Jean had previously extracted Sublime on panel.
Or the Forces comments ("disinfection successful"😉 could refer to the fact that Jeans disinfection mission was a success because her actions neutralised Sublime. To disinfect is to destroy or remove harmful bacteria from something. By cutting away the future, Jean was removing the threat of Sublime; therefore by its basic definition Jean was successfully disinfecting reality. However what prevents you from saying the same in reverse is the fact that by pulling out bacteria from Sublime, she is not amputating the future. She is not removing any diseased limb of reality via that action. HCT was literally cut off as stated by Quentin Quire.
