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Scientific Facts First Revealed In The Bible? How?
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Gotquestions.org is a biased source.


quote:
Date of Writing: The date of the authorship of the Book of Job would be determined by the author of the Book of Job. If Moses was the author, the date would be around 1440 B.C. If Solomon was the author, the date would be around 950 B.C. Because we don’t know the author, we can’t know the date of writing.


At least they admit they don't know when it was written, but they do seem to skew the reader into thinking it's older. I wonder how the writer on Wikipedia came to the conclusion they came to.

But regardless, even thinking the Bible was written much longer ago, this Priest admits there's no good science in the Good Book...




"It presents itself as science and it's not."



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Old Post Jul 14th, 2017 12:18 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Anyone who was literate enough to write and write well back in the day was more or less part of the educated elite as even basic literacy was rare back in the day.

This isn't correct. The consensus among historians is that the OT was written between 6th and 2nd centuries BC so it doesn't pre-date Pythagoras and Anaximander.




quote:
Anyone who was literate enough to write and write well back in the day was more or less part of the educated elite as even basic literacy was rare back in the day.




Well, basic literacy wasn’t all that necessary unless a person engaged in trade, was a scribe, or was a priest.



Click https://allmesopotamia.wordpress.co...nt-mesopotamia/



Click http://www.ancient.eu/writing/



quote:
This isn't correct. The consensus among historians is that the OT was written between 6th and 2nd centuries BC so it doesn't pre-date Pythagoras and Anaximander.




Where did you get your alleged consensus?



Actually, the Bible was written by people from various socioeconomic backgrounds. It was written by shepherds, prophets, a cupbearer, military leaders, kings, a ruler/chief governor, a Jewish priest, fishermen, a tax collector, a physician, a tentmaker—and others from various walks of life.



Click http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questio...wrote-the-bible



Click https://www.biblica.com/resources/b...-bible-written/



Like I told you before, the “oldest” book of the Bible (which revealed that Earth free floats in space) was written in the 15th century BC (approximately 780 plus years before Anaximander was born, and 840 plus years before Pythagoras was born).



The Book of Isaiah (which revealed that Earth is a sphere or spherical) was written in the 7th century BC (approximately 112 plus years before Anaximander was born, and 172 plus years before Pythagoras was born).



If you clicked on the above links you will “readily” see that both books pre-date Anaximander and Pythagoras.


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Old Post Jul 16th, 2017 10:20 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Well, basic literacy wasn’t all that necessary unless a person engaged in trade, was a scribe, or was a priest.



Click https://allmesopotamia.wordpress.co...nt-mesopotamia/



Click http://www.ancient.eu/writing/







Where did you get your alleged consensus?



Actually, the Bible was written by people from various socioeconomic backgrounds. It was written by shepherds, prophets, a cupbearer, military leaders, kings, a ruler/chief governor, a Jewish priest, fishermen, a tax collector, a physician, a tentmaker—and others from various walks of life.



Click http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questio...wrote-the-bible



Click https://www.biblica.com/resources/b...-bible-written/



Like I told you before, the “oldest” book of the Bible (which revealed that Earth free floats in space) was written in the 15th century BC (approximately 780 plus years before Anaximander was born, and 840 plus years before Pythagoras was born).



The Book of Isaiah (which revealed that Earth is a sphere or spherical) was written in the 7th century BC (approximately 112 plus years before Anaximander was born, and 172 plus years before Pythagoras was born).



If you clicked on the above links you will “readily” see that both books pre-date Anaximander and Pythagoras.




Correction:



Click https://docs.google.com/document/d/...lTM9gF8XPg/edit


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 12:51 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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A fairly high level of literacy was necessary if you wanted to write something and write it well, which was very uncommon back in the day and largely relegated to the elite. So it's extremely unlikely that shepherds and tentmakers had any part in writing the OT.

I refer to actual historians when dating the OT, not biased websites whose entire purpose is to promote Christianity. Here's some examples:
https://books.google.lt/books?id=PS...p;q&f=false
https://books.google.lt/books?id=2V...p;q&f=false


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 05:44 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
A fairly high level of literacy was necessary if you wanted to write something and write it well, which was very uncommon back in the day and largely relegated to the elite. So it's extremely unlikely that shepherds and tentmakers had any part in writing the OT.

I refer to actual historians when dating the OT, not biased websites whose entire purpose is to promote Christianity. Here's some examples:
https://books.google.lt/books?id=PS...p;q&f=false
https://books.google.lt/books?id=2V...p;q&f=false


It's extremely unlikely a shepherd would become king of a nation, for that matter (David). But, if that did indeed happen, then that shepherd king would have the knowledge of the elites of his day practically on call. And be able to dictate to scribes what he wanted written down and preserved for future generations.
And have the best minds of his country available as personal tutors if he wanted to learn to read and write himself.
Assuming, as he was part of a king's court (Saul's) before he got his own, that he wasn't already literate by the time he took his throne.

Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 09:42 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
The oldest parts of the OT date back to 6th to 4th centuries BC, including the Book of Job.



https://thescrolleaters.wordpress.c...t-book-job-1-5/

We're spending enough time on this that I might ask soon for a list of your preferred sources and why you actually prefer them.

In the meantime, I found the reasoning in the article above quite intriguing in regards to when Job was written, so ...

Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 09:58 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
https://thescrolleaters.wordpress.c...t-book-job-1-5/

We're spending enough time on this that I might ask soon for a list of your preferred sources and why you actually prefer them.

In the meantime, I found the reasoning in the article above quite intriguing in regards to when Job was written, so ...

I gave a couple of my sources in my previous post.

I've also read through the Scroll Eaters blog a bit and the guy argues that the Great Flood was a factual, historical event and also calls evolution a myth. It's pretty clear that we're dealing with a pro-Christianity propagandist who's hardly unbiased; I'd take anything written on that blog with a massive pinch of salt.


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 04:39 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's extremely unlikely a shepherd would become king of a nation, for that matter (David). But, if that did indeed happen, then that shepherd king would have the knowledge of the elites of his day practically on call. And be able to dictate to scribes what he wanted written down and preserved for future generations.
And have the best minds of his country available as personal tutors if he wanted to learn to read and write himself.
Assuming, as he was part of a king's court (Saul's) before he got his own, that he wasn't already literate by the time he took his throne.

Well, David is basically a semi-legendary figure. We don't have a whole lot of factual information on the guy.


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 04:47 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I refer to actual historians when dating the OT, not biased websites whose entire purpose is to promote Christianity. Here's some examples:
https://books.google.lt/books?id=PS...p;q&f=false
https://books.google.lt/books?id=2V...p;q&f=false


thumb up



quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I've also read through the Scroll Eaters blog a bit and the guy argues that the Great Flood was a factual, historical event and also calls evolution a myth. It's pretty clear that we're dealing with a pro-Christianity propagandist who's hardly unbiased; I'd take anything written on that blog with a massive pinch of salt.


Yup, they have no credibility then.


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 05:08 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Gotquestions.org is a biased source.




This really is an unlearned statement.



Calling a Christian website a biased source for talking about Bible history (or all things “Bible”), is just as bizarre as calling Dr. Neil Degrasse Tyson’s, Dr. Stephen Hawking’s, and Dr. Richard Dawkin’s respective secular website a biased source for talking about astrophysics/astronomy, theoretical physics/cosmology, and secularlism/atheism/evolution (or for all things “science-related” , or pseudo-science-related).



It would be like going to a neurologist to learn how to practice law, or going to a carpenter to learn how to design an aircraft, or going to a computer engineer to learn how to be an executive chef. If you want to learn a given subject the best thing to do is to learn from someone who “is” whatever you desire to become, or who “knows” whatever it is you want to know.



You see, as far as those websites are concerned, that’s what they’re supposed to do. They’re supposed to speak on their area of expertise, not on any other area—because that’s their area of authority.



In addition, any source (secular or Christian) that you refer to is biased, no matter what the subject is because the writers/contributors of said sources have a vested interest in promoting what they “deem” are the “facts”, irrespective of what they claim.



So if a Christian website talks about the age of a particular Book of the Bible, there is no way to separate the Christian website’s writers/contributors from their intrinsic bias to promote what they believe is the truth based on all of the available evidence/information.



The same is true of secular websites, whose writers/contributors have an intrinsic bias to promote what they believe is the truth based on all of the evidence/information available to them.


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Last edited by JesusLovesYou on Jul 17th, 2017 at 07:26 PM

Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 07:20 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Calling a Christian website a biased source for talking about Bible history (or all things “Bible”), is just as bizarre as calling Dr. Neil Degrasse Tyson’s, Dr. Stephen Hawking’s, and Dr. Richard Dawkin’s respective secular website a biased source for talking about astrophysics/astronomy, theoretical physics/cosmology, and secularlism/atheism/evolution (or for all things “science-related” , or pseudo-science-related).


No, that is a false analogy. But it doesn't surprise me that you don't realize that.

When predominantly Christian sources have a reputation for misrepresenting and blatantly lying about facts, as seen by such "facts" not matching those of more scientific sources they inherently lose their credibility. Scientific disciplines are inherently set up to avoid bias. That's the whole point of the practice of science. Religion has no such practice. In fact it tries to stretch facts onto its biases.


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Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 08:09 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
A fairly high level of literacy was necessary if you wanted to write something and write it well, which was very uncommon back in the day and largely relegated to the elite. So it's extremely unlikely that shepherds and tentmakers had any part in writing the OT.

I refer to actual historians when dating the OT, not biased websites whose entire purpose is to promote Christianity. Here's some examples:
https://books.google.lt/books?id=PS...p;q&f=false
https://books.google.lt/books?id=2V...p;q&f=false




quote:
A fairly high level of literacy was necessary if you wanted to write something and write it well, which was very uncommon back in the day and largely relegated to the elite. So it's extremely unlikely that shepherds and tentmakers had any part in writing the OT.




Moses (a Hebrew who was raised by Pharaoh’s daughter, perhaps from the time he was weaned until he was an adult) was educated by dark-skinned Egyptians.






Acts 7:22
And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds.







The Egyptians are renowned worldwide for their wisdom and understanding, which they graciously imparted to the Greeks (who took credit for the Egyptian’s vast, foundation-laying knowledge as something self-discovered, self-learned, and self-taught).



Sometime later, Moses assaulted, and killed an Egyptian who he witnessed beating another Hebrew. Moses’ crime was no secret so he fled to Midian where he got married to an Ethiopian woman, and became a shepherd for approximately 40 years, tending his father-in-law’s flock. Moses ultimately wrote two copies of the Ten Commandments, and the Jewish Torah (i.e. the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are Old Testament Books. There’s debate as to whether Moses wrote any other Books of the Bible.






The apostle Paul, who was both a Roman and Israelite (so he had privileges that the average Hebrew didn’t have), was a Pharisee.






Philippians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;






The Pharisees pioneered Judaism, were regarded as spiritual leaders, along with the scribes occupied Moses’ seat of authority among the Jewish people…






Matthew 23:2-3
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore, whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.






…held to the teaching and strict adherence to the Torah (or Law of Moses), met in synagogues, believed in the hereafter following death, believed in the existence of angels and the resurrection,






Acts 23:8
For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.







In addition, the apostle Paul (who wrote 51.8% of the New Testament i.e. Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, Philemon, Colossians, 1 Timothy, Titus, 2 Timothy, and Hebrews) was a tentmaker.






Acts 18:3
After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers.






quote:
I refer to actual historians when dating the OT, not biased websites whose entire purpose is to promote Christianity. Here's some examples:




Well, in my last post I debunked the misconception concerning bias.



Click https://docs.google.com/document/d/...vO5NN1zYa4/edit



But where in those links does it support your assertion that,



quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
…The consensus among historians is that the OT was written between 6th and 2nd centuries BC….


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Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 03:57 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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Moses is a legendary figure who probably never even existed so there's no point in bringing him up.

As for Paul: yes, he was a tentmaker, but he also came from an affluent family who could afford him an education. Paul was far from your average artisan.

Patient_Leech has already explained this. There's a big difference between people who deal in scientific facts and empiricism, and those who would try to convince us that ancient middle-eastern myths are real all the while happily ignoring historical and scientific facts.

I'm not sure if those parts are available in Google preview. It's supposed to be pages 153 and 282.


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Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 04:34 AM
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Adam_PoE
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I do not know why people are debating the veracity of the various biblical accounts and authors, when the gospels are anonymous, and there are no original biblical manuscripts.

The only thing of which The Bible is proof is that ink sticks to paper.


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Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 05:18 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I do not know why people are debating the veracity of the various biblical accounts and authors, when the gospels are anonymous, and there are no original biblical manuscripts.


1. I probably missed it, but where did anyone specifically mention the gospels recently?

2. If we ARE going to discuss the gospels, please explain in what sense they are anonymous when they are clearly attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

3. Please explain why, in a culture dedicated to reproducing and preserving the written word, gross inaccuracy should be an unchallenged assumption. Please look up the word "phylactery" before you do this, however. Jewish culture is extraordinary for the lengths its members go to in order to preserve religious texts, and has been for centuries.

Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 07:13 AM
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Adam_PoE
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If we ARE going to discuss the gospels, please explain in what sense they are anonymous when they are clearly attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Please explain why, in a culture dedicated to reproducing and preserving the written word, gross inaccuracy should be an unchallenged assumption. Please look up the word "phylactery" before you do this, however. Jewish culture is extraordinary for the lengths its members go to in order to preserve religious texts, and has been for centuries.


Please explain why anyone should believe a non-contemporaneous account written by an anonymous author over 30 years after the alleged events took place when no original manuscripts exist.


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Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 07:32 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory


Scroll Eaters ... I'd take anything written on that blog with a massive pinch of salt.


Doubtless Scroll Eaters provide some easy targets to distract people even when they make good points. But defeating straw men isn't going to convince anyone with serious questions concerning the points they DO find good.

Below is a reasonable condensation of the specific points that intrigued me from them regarding how we might ascertain when Job was actually first written.

Please give a serious answer to these and what you think of their reasoning.
Leave the lifespan of the man himself out of it please. I KNOW that's an easy target, but giving overmuch attention to that won't do anything to answer the contention that the Book of Job preceded Pythagoras and Animaxander OR actually answer to the more well-reasoned assertions the author makes.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Linguists can judge the age of a document based on how old its diction is. The oldest Hebrew: Job. The Hebrew in Job is so old it’s unique. It’s actually often called “Paleo-Hebrew.” Job was written in the time of the Patriarchs. Genesis was written, or compiled, by Moses, some 430+ years later! The difference in Job and Genesis is the same as our KJV and today! So, Job’s our oldest book, but when is it set?

Job is in the time of the patriarchs, meaning the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Most likely, it was somewhere after Babel and before Abraham. This would be ≈2200 BC to 1800 BC ...

we know it’s of that era ... Job’s wealth is measured in the size of his flocks and servants, rather than in money as will happen later ...

there’s no priesthood. Just like Abraham made altars, like to sacrifice Isaac on, and Jacob built altars, we see Job function as the spiritual leader. He makes sacrifices for his sons “just in case” in 1:5. This places it before the Levitical priesthood.

There are a few other things we could look at, but this should be sufficient to know that Job’s an old book, predating or being contemporaneous with Abraham. By contrast, the account of Abraham himself was written/edited/redacted by Moses 400 years later.

Another background issue we should look at is the structure of Job. A cursory look in an any non-paraphrased Bible will show that Job is a bit of prose on each end with a large chunk of poetry in the middle. There’s some debate, but the consensus is that the prose bookends are the older part, and were probably later separated and the poetry section inserted by an anonymous writer. If you take the poetry section out and read the prose straight through, it doesn’t flow, so the middle prose section was likely removed, expanded in poetry, and replaced ...

Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 08:01 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
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Please explain why anyone should believe a non-contemporaneous account written by an anonymous author over 30 years after the alleged events took place when no original manuscripts exist.



1. I am very much serious.

2. I am not of the mind a group with a tradition of preserving written word so extreme that they LITERALLY wear select written texts and have ceremonies for reading from such "clothing" should be lightly dismissed.

If any people in the world before ours could be expected to preserve accurate accounts of things despite persecution and attempts to destroy their knowledge, the Jews are that people.


Phylacteries are Exhibit A:


The wearing of phylacteries is based on some commands in Deuteronomy. Israel was told to love God and keep His commandments. In fact, they were to “tie [the commandments] as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads” (Deuteronomy 6:8). Later, God tells them, “Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads” (Deuteronomy 11:18). We take the wording of these commands to be figurative: whatever we do (with the hand) and whatever we think (with the head) is to be guided by the authority of God’s Word. But, at some point—possibly as early as the fourth century BC—the Jewish rabbis began applying this verse literally, and the practice of tying phylacteries onto their arms and heads commenced.

Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 08:24 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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Well, when someone is spreading pro-Christian propaganda with the obvious intent to deceive and indoctrinate, it does put their other points into question.

As for your points about the book of Job: qualified historians, not religious ideologues, agree that it was written sometime between 6th and 4th centuries BC.

It could've just been written in a different dialect which the author mistook for an older version of the language.

Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Job, etc. are mythological characters with virtually no historicity behind them so it's incorrect to try to actually date them to a particular time like ~2000BC.

A person's wealth used to be measured in all sorts of ways even up to the middle ages so the fact that Job's was measured in flocks and servants is not strictly relevant nor does it necessarily tell us which time period he lived in.

The rest can be explained by the likely fact that the Book of Job, just like the rest of the OT, was written as an "account" of the events that supposedly happened thousands or hundreds of years ago. Sort of like Homer recounting the events of the Trojan war, but even less factual.


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Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 08:49 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well, when someone is spreading pro-Christian propaganda with the obvious intent to deceive and indoctrinate, it does put their other points into question.


I can understand "indoctrination" from your point of view.
I'm not sure where it's so "obvious" to you that ScrollEaters has the intent to deceive, though.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory

As for your points about the book of Job: qualified historians, not religious ideologues, agree that it was written sometime between 6th and 4th centuries BC.


I'm not convinced of that, mainly because even sites like Britannica. com feature the following:



-------------------
The Book of Job may be divided into two sections of prose narrative, consisting of a prologue (chapters 1–2) and an epilogue (chapter 42:7–17), and intervening poetic disputation (chapters 3–42:6). The prose narratives date to before the 6th century bce, and the poetry has been dated between the 6th and the 4th century bce. Chapters 28 and 32–37 were probably later additions.

-------------------


There's a related point concerning the above.

People overlook the size of the Bible. It is not really a book in the classic sense but rather like a small library of books. And even individual books could be of considerable size. This is particularly true of the Book of Job. I first encountered it as a Bible Story either at my grandparents' home or in a library somewhere. That was a 2 or 3 page condensation for young readers. It wasn't till around 2008 that I chanced upon some radio program that discussed the prospect of going through the book. In fact, it was and is called Through the Bible with J. Vernon McGee. Time devoted for going through some books? 1 day.
Time devoted for going through Job? 30 days. Job is huge, and seems to have been written in installments. The nearest equivalent I can think of that the readers in this forum might relate to is the way comic book issues are periodically gathered and collated into archives and trade paper books, sometimes months, years, or even decades after their initial run.

Add to this that Job seems to have been a well-known figure in oral history.

So not only do secular sources suggest Job was written in parts, not a whole, and not only do they suggest some of those parts predate 6 th century, but they also suggest Job was known through oral tellings before people put him to pen.

I can't discount those considerations so easily given everything else I know of Jewish history.

Old Post Jul 18th, 2017 09:49 AM
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