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Midichlorian Counts
Started by: HeartoftheForce

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HeartoftheForce
The name's Kenobi...

Registered: May 2010
Location: United States


 

I agree truejedi. The thing about moving slowly with a plate full of food on earth is that gravity is acting as the force holding it in place. In space there is no force holding it together.


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 01:50 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

The plate of food continues moving in precisely the same direction as it was before. Inertia. The effects of footsteps would not be able to overcome the rest-mass of the various components to cause total disintegration of the ship. (And you still haven't responded to the relatively finished interior of the ship; both artificial gravity and life support were in effect; do you think it is likely that N. picked up various unconnected sheets of metal and is holding them together? Even if he was in the gutted out skeleton of a ship, there would still be some degree of cohesion, even without the repairs we've seen.) (Another thing you haven't substantiated is the idea that the presence of "fasteners" makes N.'s contribution to structural integrity zero. I can quote you the line if I need to.)


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 01:52 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by HeartoftheForce
I agree truejedi. The thing about moving slowly with a plate full of food on earth is that gravity is acting as the force holding it in place. In space there is no force holding it together.

This is not true. I included the line "superstructure of breadsticks" for a reason. Moreover, TJ has yet to substantiate that there is no cohesion among the various components of the ship, or that N. contributing to structural integrity excludes the possibility of other kinds of "fasteners."


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 01:53 AM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

no, i believe you. I think the quote, and the finished condition of the inside of the ship kinda negates the quote about him holding it together, since that clearly wasn't case.

There would be no inertia pushing in the positive y direction (the normal) to counteract the footsteps which would be a force in the negative y direction.

All inertia for the ship would be along the Z and the X axis.

So you are correct, clearly he wasn'tactually holding the ship together with the force, like Tobin implies. He possibly PUT it together with the force? But since that would just be an assumption on our parts... it is far more likely that Tobin is simply wrong.


Oh,and in response to this:

quote:

Another thing you haven't substantiated is the idea that the presence of "fasteners" makes N.'s contribution to structural integrity zero. I can quote you the line if I need to.)


If his contribution is not total, the feat is meaningless, because saying it is LESS than total, throws it back into the world of the unknown. Perhaps he was only holding the command chair to the deck of the command center, for all we know, as that technically would be fulfilling the "holding the ship together" requirement.

Old Post May 18th, 2010 01:57 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

Again, no.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by truejedi
no, i believe you. I think the quote, and the finished condition of the inside of the ship kinda negates the quote about him holding it together, since that clearly wasn't case.
[/b]
Except that he could have held it together in the face of potentially catastrophic stress. There is no need to call Tobin a liar at all.
quote:

There would be no inertia pushing in the positive y direction (the normal) to counteract the footsteps which would be a force in the negative y direction.

All inertia for the ship would be along the Z and the X axis.

I might be misunderstanding inertia, but I thought it was not a vector quantity. So each step would move the component it strikes only a little. Inertia dampens the overall effect of each footstep.
quote:

So you are correct, clearly he wasn'tactually holding the ship together with the force, like Tobin implies. He possibly PUT it together with the force? But since that would just be an assumption on our parts... it is far more likely that Tobin is simply wrong.

Not so. You've yet to prove that N.'s actions were a constant effort. You're ignoring the idea that N. pulled a preexisting ship out of orbit. He doesn't have to order a million different pieces of metal, he just has to keep the one big skeleton of a ship from falling apart. The ship would exist even without N.

quote:

Oh,and in response to this:



If his contribution is not total, the feat is meaningless, because saying it is LESS than total, throws it back into the world of the unknown. Perhaps he was only holding the command chair to the deck of the command center, for all we know, as that technically would be fulfilling the "holding the ship together" requirement.

It doesn't make the feat meaningless, only indistinct. But, to my knowledge at least, the impressive part has never been maintenance. Are you forgetting the pulled thousands of tons out of a gravity generator part?


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 02:04 AM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Again, no.


Except that he could have held it together in the face of potentially catastrophic stress. There is no need to call Tobin a liar at all.


But where is the evidence of that stress? potentially means he maybe wasn't holding it together except in extreme situations, which we don't know of ANY situations like that, and so we can't say he was actually doing it at all.

quote:


I might be misunderstanding inertia, but I thought it was not a vector quantity. So each step would move the component it strikes only a little. Inertia dampens the overall effect of each footstep.


I am not an expert, but here is the way I am seeing it. Inertia is the tendency of objects to continue to move in the direction they are moving unless acted on by an outside force. So the inertia of the ship, keeping it together is its own momentum, all the parts are moving together.

This is a moot point if you argument is that the ship IS connected in other ways besides N's power, but what I was arguing is that a completely disconnected ship, when pushed from above (step on top of a floor) will fly apart, because there is absolutely nothing stabilizing it from the top. Your argument has evolved a bit with the metal framework im about to address, so this is probably doesn't matter though.

quote:

Not so. You've yet to prove that N.'s actions were a constant effort. You're ignoring the idea that N. pulled a preexisting ship out of orbit. He doesn't have to order a million different pieces of metal, he just has to keep the one big skeleton of a ship from falling apart. The ship would exist even without N.


This is absolutely fine. I am actually pretty much saying the same thing.
It is much less impressive feat in this light, and I can let it go. Except one part of it. How does he keep the "big skeleton of a ship from falling apart" without maintaining force control of the whole thing? Is he just holding the weakest parts?


quote:

It doesn't make the feat meaningless, only indistinct. But, to my knowledge at least, the impressive part has never been maintenance. Are you forgetting the pulled thousands of tons out of a gravity generator part?


indistinct is as good as meaningless in a feats war,

And i've not forgotten the thousands of tons from a gravity well thing, I am making a case to cast doubt on one of the witnesses to the feat.

Old Post May 18th, 2010 02:22 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

The rest is moot (we're both mangling the physics terribly so I suggest we move away from that area) so I'll respond to this:

quote:
How does he keep the "big skeleton of a ship from falling apart" without maintaining force control of the whole thing? Is he just holding the weakest parts?

I see the threat of disintegration coming from the compromised structure of the vessel. N. pulled a wrecked ship from the Mass Shadow Generator, and we cannot ascertain how much of its original strength remains. It is likely, therefore, that at least part of its original integrity has been lost. Thus, any action that results in forces acting on the ship could cause catastrophic failure of these weakened points. (Any sort of acceleration or deceleration will generate shear forces within the ship, which may be beyond the weakened vessel's ability to withstand.)

N.'s part in "holding the ship together" would be to shore up those weak spots with the Force and make sure that the ship does not shake or pull itself apart during burn (acceleration) or when it jumps to Hyperspace. Day to day functions would go on without his attention. After all, he pulled a skeleton out of the gravity well, not a collection of unconnected parts.


___________
And who said anything about a Feat war? It is just a testament to his precision. (Which goes without saying, as the ship didn't fall apart as it exited the gravity well!)


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 02:37 AM
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HeartoftheForce
The name's Kenobi...

Registered: May 2010
Location: United States


 

I have a question. Who do you guys think has more Force potential and in what order? Out of Jacen, Jaina, Anakin Solo, and Ben Skywalker.


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 02:42 AM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

Well, as a simple matter of genetics: Ben is first, (mara and luke) the other three, having the same parents should be equal.

Old Post May 18th, 2010 03:36 AM
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Lucius
Transhumanist

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Relative/Unknown


 

A person walking on the ship isn't going to jack to it even if its not "held" together. Consider how much mass the person has and how much mass the 1.2 kilometer long space age metal monstrosity has.


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 04:31 AM
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Gideon
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quote: (post)
RN
I understand questioning sources, but going to such lengths to discredit someone with no reason to lie


Tobin was in Nihilus's thrall, yes?

Tobin was a non-Force sensitive with no substantiated expertise on the Force, yes?

All of these would indicate that Tobin was a person; and people are capable of lying, exaggerating, or outright pulling things out of their asses.

I'm treating Tobin's quote exactly as any other statement made by an unqualified, fallible third party would be.

quote:
RN
--someone whose testimony is corroborated by OoU facts (the loading screen)--


It is said by an out of universe that Nihilus holds the ship together?

quote:
RN
suggests some sort of deeper bias.


I'm better looking than Nihilus, so I doubt it.

quote:
RN
Maybe Gid is just jealous of N.'s TK;


My TK is better.

quote:
RN
maybe Gid is afraid that he has found a match for Palpatine. laughing


A match?

Just for kicks, I will now use a statement made by another fallible third party.

"Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." -- the New Essential Chronology.

So Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever, since fallible third party quotes are always and unquestioningly valid.

I win.

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: As usual.

Old Post May 18th, 2010 04:34 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

quote:
It is said by an out of universe that Nihilus holds the ship together?

This I do not know. I suspect not. I'm not particularly attached to the feat though, so it isn't important either way. (I get nothing out of "held together" that isn't done better and faster with "pulled from a gravity well").

quote:
I'm treating Tobin's quote exactly as any other statement made by an unqualified, fallible third party would be.

Luckily, the only important bit of information we get from him certainly is corroborated by the loading screen.


Everything else was a joke.


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 04:39 AM
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Gideon
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quote: (post)
RN
This I do not know. I suspect not. I'm not particularly attached to the feat though, so it isn't important either way. (I get nothing out of "held together" that isn't done better and faster with "pulled from a gravity well").


I enjoy crushing you.

no expression

quote:
RN
Luckily, the only important bit of information we get from him certainly is corroborated by the loading screen.


Where in the loading screen? And does it mention the details of this particular technique?

quote:
RN
Everything else was a joke.


That's what I might say if my point were just annihilated (like yours).

Old Post May 18th, 2010 04:45 AM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Gideon
I enjoy crushing you.

no expression

Was this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?

quote:

Where in the loading screen? And does it mention the details of this particular technique?

In the loading screen where it says he ripped the ship out of the gravity well with the Force. The "technique" is nothing more than TK, so any "details" are the natural ramifications of Telekinesis.


quote:

That's what I might say if my point were just annihilated (like yours).

You didn't find the smiley a giveaway? Are you this bad at reading nonverbal cues in real life?


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 07:41 PM
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Gideon
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quote: (post)
RN
Was this crushing before or after the part where I rebut all of the various points of TJ's argument (which is also yours somehow?) against the information and reduce you to vague jabs at the source of the information itself?[/b]


Vague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.

That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.

Hence the crushing.

thumb up

quote:
RN
In the loading screen where it says he ripped the ship out of the gravity well with the Force. The "technique" is nothing more than TK, so any "details" are the natural ramifications of Telekinesis.


What does it say, word-for-word? "Darth Nihilus used telekinesis to rip the Ravager out of a gravity well," "Darth Nihilus used an ancient technique to enhance his powers and rip the Ravager out of the gravity well," or what?

quote:
RN
You didn't find the smiley a giveaway? Are you this bad at reading nonverbal cues in real life?


I'm about as bad as reading nonverbal cues as you are good in the area of getting dates.

With that said,

quote:
Gideon
I enjoy crushing you.

--> no expression <--


quote:
RN
You didn't find the smiley a giveaway?


I win.

no expression

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: You should probably surrender, Nemesis. I always win.

Old Post May 18th, 2010 09:29 PM
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Zampanů
The Blind Critic

Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Haven


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Gideon
Vague jabs aren't required. Tobin's knowledge of Nihilus's command of the Force and his purported ability to hold the Ravager together has yet to be substantiated; Tobin hasn't demonstrated any particular expertise in the areas of the Force. He's a no-name military officer who happens to be under Nihilus's thrall: which is to say that his opinion is irrelevant.

That's all I need to do, you see. I just KO'd your source, which means you can manufacture the greatest argument in the history of mankind, but it doesn't matter: because you can't make use of Tobin as someone whose opinion is either credible or relevant.

Hence the crushing.

thumb up


Hey look at nobody caring! All that matters is the loading screen. (I've always thought it was weird that Tobin was the one telling us this stuff. That is why I always cite the OOU material.)

quote:

What does it say, word-for-word? "Darth Nihilus used telekinesis to rip the Ravager out of a gravity well," "Darth Nihilus used an ancient technique to enhance his powers and rip the Ravager out of the gravity well," or what?

idk. i do know that it was cemented as an actual feat though, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm pretty sure that this is round two, at least, of your struggles against this. You've never been able to get around that gosh darned loading screen, and this (clearly) is no exception.

quote:

I'm about as bad as reading nonverbal cues as you are good in the area of getting dates.

With that said,





I win.

no expression

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: You should probably surrender, Nemesis. I always win.

no expression

Like nunca. You've never beaten me. erm


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 09:40 PM
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Nephthys
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

I'm still confused as to why there were frickin holes in the ship and nothing bad comes from it. There's something about particle fields at 3.19, but other than that I don't recall the ship actually having shields or anything that would actually keep the air in. That was why I always assumed N held it together really. I mean, at the end of the vid you should logically be standing in an f'ing void.

edit: Oh crap, I see you lurking Gideon. This isn't a serious theory or anything so please don't be getting all up in my grill about it.


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Last edited by Nephthys on May 18th, 2010 at 09:59 PM

Old Post May 18th, 2010 09:44 PM
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Gideon
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quote: (post)
RN
Hey look at nobody caring!


no expression

You demonstrate your apathy by devoting time and energy to responding?

You know what that means...

It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!

*cue the cheers*

quote:
RN
All that matters is the loading screen. (I've always thought it was weird that Tobin was the one telling us this stuff. That is why I always cite the OOU material.)


Does the loading screen say he's holding the ship together?

quote:
RN
idk. i do know that it was cemented as an actual feat though, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.


So the feat is valid and the loading screen has said what people claim its saying because... we're talking about it?

That's not sound logic, Nemmy; Janus and co. used to say nonsense like Marka Ragnos could play ping-pong with planets and whatnot, but funny enough, you won't find any source that says it.

Provide the statement from the loading screen or STFU.

This is non-negotiable.

And make it soon.

plz

quote:
RN
I'm pretty sure that this is round two, at least, of your struggles against this. You've never been able to get around that gosh darned loading screen, and this (clearly) is no exception.


How can I get around what hasn't been provided? I love how [attempt to] hide behind a source despite apparently not having the faintest idea what it says.

quote:
RN
no expression

Like nunca. You've never beaten me. erm


I seem to recall, particularly in your first years here, every single match ended in your concessions.

You try to avoid arguing with me now; that's the fear I inspire in you.

no expression

Old Post May 18th, 2010 10:00 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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quote:
It's time for CONTRADICTION CORNER!

*cue the cheers*


[email protected] Corner


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Old Post May 18th, 2010 10:05 PM
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Gideon
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quote: (post)
N
edit: Oh crap, I see you lurking Gideon. This isn't a serious theory or anything so please don't be getting all up in my grill about it.


I was preparing an assault on the enemy facility that is your grill. Because you've asked nicely, I shall relent and call off my troops.

shifty

In all seriousness, I'm just yanking Red's chain, teasing him about his obvious inferiority and sexual insecurities, but I do so out of love. (Hence the emotes.)

In more-than-all seriousness, the same question was posed about the Death Star in TFU. Perhaps there's some sort of device, as mentioned in the TFU novelization (I think), that creates an artificial atmosphere?

Or is the Ravager too small?

Old Post May 18th, 2010 10:06 PM
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