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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Sith Inquisitor versus Dooku


Sith Inquisitor versus Dooku
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Herbert Spencer
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Your dedication is impressive.

Interesting is the entry on the Dark Temple, where Vitiate and the Jedi Knight battled:

quote:
Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.


Talk about a home turf advantage, eh?

Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:48 PM
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Nephthys
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Didn't help him much.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:50 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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I am so glad these thoughtful players have uploaded the contents of the Codex for people like myself. It's given me all sorts of fascinating information.

quote:
He conquered his competitors in a series of quick, ruthless campaigns and became Dark Lord of all Sith, a title he would hold for more than a century.

The reign of Marka Ragnos might have been short-lived had he not displayed great strategic discipline. Instead of clashing directly with Sith challengers who hungered for his power, he pitted his enemies against each other to weaken and destroy them


big grin

Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:51 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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But we knew this from years ago.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:52 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But we knew this from years ago.


yes

But nothing this concrete was ever introduced until now. Now we know that Ragnos's century reign cannot be attributed in any meaningful respect to combat prowess or Force powers, but his keen sense of strategy.

My intuition is truly formidable.

Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:53 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I watched it. I assume you mean the part about Baras 'asking the Emperor what to do?' Really I don't know what you think that proves.


I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:54 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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?
I don't imagine that the Emperor's consciousness is within them at all times, which would explain the mixed reaction to Baras's claim.

Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 09:57 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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What? That's like saying that the Emperor's Hand doesn't always have an extension of the Emperor's Will in it, when we've only seen it happen that way. None of the dark council members at any point were convinced as much as they believed Baras, without any credible proof. The Voice happened to be one individual at any given time, not multiple individuals. If the Emperor fully possessed the individual, his consciousness would be there until it decided to leave, at which point the Voice would be the new body. Therefore, there's nothing really indicating that the Voice was anything more than a title and some measure of extension of the Emperor's Will.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 10:03 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.


No, it just means that the Council is ignorant of some aspect of the Voice and how exactly it works.

I mean if, according to you, Lord Scourge can't tell the difference between the man he's guarded for 300 years and who he once fought in battle, and the Voice, why exactly do you assume that the Council can do a better job figuring out who is and isn't the Voice?

Also you're focusing on the wrong thing. The question has never been whether the Emperor's full consciousness is manifested in the Voice, but rather whether his power has. Nothing suggests to me that the Voice is not just as powerful as the Emperor.

And still the fact remains that the only thing declaring the person the Jedi Knight killed to be the Voice rather than the actual Emperor is an in-game e-mail. The truth of the matter has in no way been confirmed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Therefore, there's nothing really indicating that the Voice was anything more than a title and some measure of extension of the Emperor's Will.


Except the Codex quote that you insist on ignoring.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 10:05 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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What I'm suggesting is that the Voice is simply a vessel for the Emperor's power and consciousness, similar to Kira Carsen, not a permanent vehicle for it (which would be the Emperor's own physical body). Thus Baras's claim to the position could be contested if the Emperor weren't possessing him at the time and the Codex's words are preserved.

There's no contradiction, to my knowledge, and canon endures.

Old Post Feb 16th, 2012 10:08 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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quote:

Except the Codex quote that you insist on ignoring.




Except you choose to follow the material that better suits your goals. Also, notice how the entire dark council ceases to support Baras as soon as the Emperor's Wrath shows up. After all, if Baras was the Emperor's consciousness, then the Wrath wouldn't have shown up calling him an imposter.

quote:
What I'm suggesting is that the Voice is simply a vessel for the Emperor's power and consciousness,

It's possible but I don't recall anything ever stating that the Emperor body jumps. In fact, he stated on Voss that he can't transfer into another body until the current one dies. Whether that's part of the process or a result of Sel Makor, I don't know.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 03:29 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall the Emperor ever being involved in the conversation. Baras is trying to prove that he's the Emperor's Voice and half of the council believe him while the other don't. Contrast that with an actual Voice on Voss. If the Emperor's full consciousness was transferred into those bodies, there would be no issue from the Dark Council. It would be blatantly obvious, as it was on Voss. The fact that they couldn't make up their mind makes it pretty clear that the Voice isn't as clear cut transfer essence as you're making it out to be.

http://www.torhead.com/codex/2WsD66...emperor-warrior

"In fact, to converse with the Emperor's Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice's body."
Quoted directly from the ingame codex. The Voice is holds all the power of the Emperor himself.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 06:10 AM
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Nephthys
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Beefy is well aware of that quote already.

He just ignores the **** out of it.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 07:10 AM
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Dr McBeefington
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Just like Exodus ignores everything surrounding the quote because it would damage his argument.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 02:15 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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quote:
DS
It's possible but I don't recall anything ever stating that the Emperor body jumps. In fact, he stated on Voss that he can't transfer into another body until the current one dies. Whether that's part of the process or a result of Sel Makor, I don't know.




At the 0:14 mark, the Voice identifies himself as the Emperor himself, not an intermediary. Vitiate's remark that he will "not repeat" the "oversight" of being released only upon the death of the vessel strongly implies that it's the presence of Sel-Malkor that keeps him bound in such a way.

But either way, the Voice's identification of himself as Vitiate seems to comport itself with the words of the Codex and as Neph points out, there is no contradiction with their reaction to Baras's claims.

Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 03:54 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote:
I'm underwhelmed, to be honest. At least with respect to Dooku's feats. It took the Inquisitor a full ten seconds to bring Thanaton to his knees and while stopping the lightsaber is rare, I'm not sure under what framework I should find it impressive. It's certainly rare, but I don't see how either feat would outclass Dooku.


It took Yoda about ten seconds to lift a crane. This is the same Yoda who could not be overcome in the Force by Dooku.

Cherrypicking a bit here, aren't we?

quote:
yes

But nothing this concrete was ever introduced until now. Now we know that Ragnos's century reign cannot be attributed in any meaningful respect to combat prowess or Force powers, but his keen sense of strategy.

My intuition is truly formidable.


Context is truly useful.

First:

The reign of Marka Ragnos might have been short-lived had he not displayed great strategic discipline. Instead of clashing directly with Sith challengers who hungered for his power, he pitted his enemies against each other to weaken and destroy them

This considerably speculative for a Codex entry. Sidious might have conquered the galaxy. Exar Kun might have run rampant through the cosmos. The Rakata might have conquered Korriban. Sure, if Marka Ragnos was dogpiled by the entire Council, he might have died. Same could be said for any Sith Lord.

Second:

Marka Ragnos defeated Simus in direct combat. Simus was the DLotS prior, a renowned magician, and powerful enough in the Force to live for a century as a head. Granted, he's blaster-bait, but Simus was a big deal and Ragnos utterly beat his ass. Furthermore, in order to show how complete his dominance was, Ragnos let him live as an example to others. Clearly, battle prowess and/or tremendous Dark Side strength existed in Ragnos, not just chess mastery.

Third:

TOR also notes that Marka Ragnos competed in a Kaggath, which is a ceremonial "**** the other guy up and wipe out his legacy". This person who was the ire of Ragnos? No one knows who he was. A Kaggath starts with eliminating the opponents' power base, and then challenging them to combat where you destroy them utterly and have their mark on the galaxy removed.

Fourth:

People like Sadow (the same Sadow who made a ship which channels the Force of others and ignites supernovas, an amulet which made Kun from wayward apprentice to premier Sith Lord of his era, and whose brilliance in alchemy is the foundation for many others well after) showed clear submission to Ragnos' spirit at the funeral. This is a guy who betrays his master, Ludo Kressh, and the Council to get what he wants because he has the access and power, but is fearful of Ragnos' ghost.

Fifth:

Odan-Urr feels the Force itself tremble when Ragnos dies. Apparently, because the Force it so happy that a mere strategist is dead. Dejarik players can now rest in peace. Tremendous Force power obviously has nothing to do with it, and combat is not a requirement for DLotS, which is why they have ceremonial combat and carry swords around.

Sixth:

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: ur so trollin', I just know it. But I humored you out of fun


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 07:29 PM
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Dr McBeefington
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer



At the 0:14 mark, the Voice identifies himself as the Emperor himself, not an intermediary. Vitiate's remark that he will "not repeat" the "oversight" of being released only upon the death of the vessel strongly implies that it's the presence of Sel-Malkor that keeps him bound in such a way.

But either way, the Voice's identification of himself as Vitiate seems to comport itself with the words of the Codex and as Neph points out, there is no contradiction with their reaction to Baras's claims.


Of course there is. Unless you're claiming Vitiate can jump in and out randomly and ignoring the fact that the Voice is the Voice until the Emperor chooses a new body, then the council would have had a different reaction to Baras' claim.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 07:32 PM
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Herbert Spencer
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quote:
Stealth Moose
It took Yoda about ten seconds to lift a crane.


Given that a lightsaber and a pillar are of suspiciously similar size, point taken.



quote:
Stealth Moose
This is the same Yoda who could not be overcome in the Force by Dooku.


Dooku's inability to defeat Yoda is proof of his inferiority to Nox as a telekineticist... how?

quote:
Stealth Moose
Cherrypicking a bit here, aren't we?


Not at all, son.



I don't see how stopping a lightsaber and taking ten seconds to bring someone to his knees is more impressive than, say, Dooku lifting those obelisks.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Context is truly useful.

First:

The reign of Marka Ragnos might have been short-lived had he not displayed great strategic discipline. Instead of clashing directly with Sith challengers who hungered for his power, he pitted his enemies against each other to weaken and destroy them

This considerably speculative for a Codex entry. Sidious might have conquered the galaxy. Exar Kun might have run rampant through the cosmos. The Rakata might have conquered Korriban. Sure, if Marka Ragnos was dogpiled by the entire Council, he might have died. Same could be said for any Sith Lord.


It's the next sentence that I find more interesting: Ragnos avoided direct challenges from his fellow Sith.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Second:

Marka Ragnos defeated Simus in direct combat. Simus was the DLotS prior, a renowned magician, and powerful enough in the Force to live for a century as a head. Granted, he's blaster-bait, but Simus was a big deal and Ragnos utterly beat his ass. Furthermore, in order to show how complete his dominance was, Ragnos let him live as an example to others. Clearly, battle prowess and/or tremendous Dark Side strength existed in Ragnos, not just chess mastery.


Utterly beat his ass? Proof? And no one said that Ragnos wasn't a figure of immense power, merely that the Codex says flat out that his personal power wasn't what kept him in charge.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Third:

TOR also notes that Marka Ragnos competed in a Kaggath, which is a ceremonial "**** the other guy up and wipe out his legacy". This person who was the ire of Ragnos? No one knows who he was. A Kaggath starts with eliminating the opponents' power base, and then challenging them to combat where you destroy them utterly and have their mark on the galaxy removed.


No one said that Ragnos didn't fight, but that it was his cunning that kept him in power, not his Force powers.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Fourth:

People like Sadow (the same Sadow who made a ship which channels the Force of others and ignites supernovas, an amulet which made Kun from wayward apprentice to premier Sith Lord of his era, and whose brilliance in alchemy is the foundation for many others well after) showed clear submission to Ragnos' spirit at the funeral. This is a guy who betrays his master, Ludo Kressh, and the Council to get what he wants because he has the access and power, but is fearful of Ragnos' ghost.


According to The Essential Atlas, the ancient Sith were defined by a cultural reverence for the dead. As you and Nai noted with Dooku and Sidious, submission isn't indicative of inferiority. Or does that somehow not apply to Ragnos?

quote:
Stealth Moose
Fifth:

Odan-Urr feels the Force itself tremble when Ragnos dies.


The Force balances when Palpatine dies.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Apparently, because the Force it so happy that a mere strategist is dead.


Are you asserting that the Force's reaction upon the death of Force users is indicative of their Force power? Because if so,

quote:
Me
The Force balances when Palpatine dies.


quote:
Stealth Moose
Dejarik players can now rest in peace. Tremendous Force power obviously has nothing to do with it, and combat is not a requirement for DLotS, which is why they have ceremonial combat and carry swords around.


The reign of all Sith Lords carries with it an element of combat, but it wasn't Palpatine's powers that kept him in charge nor apparently was it Ragnos's.

quote:
Stealth Moose
Sixth:

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: ur so trollin', I just know it. But I humored you out of fun


Good.

Old Post Feb 17th, 2012 08:38 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Not at all, son.



I don't see how stopping a lightsaber and taking ten seconds to bring someone to his knees is more impressive than, say, Dooku lifting those obelisks.


Just a thought, but those obelisks couldn't use the Force to resist him.


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Old Post Feb 18th, 2012 02:10 AM
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Herbert Spencer
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quote: (post)
Nephthys
Just a thought, but those obelisks couldn't use the Force to resist him.


No, but can you quantify how much Force resistance Nox had to overcome from Thanaton or proof that any was even offered at all?

Ventress was able to redirect Dooku's lightsaber strike with the Force in that same episode which, while not stopping it out right, is a similar feat (with respect to manipulating physical attacks with the Force), yet I wouldn't put her or that feat on par with Dooku or his feats.

Old Post Feb 18th, 2012 03:51 AM
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