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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force.



I would have thought the exact opposite. That he toyed with them with TK and FL more than in Sabers.


Edit: Anyway good debate. Carry on. Nice to see you back ILS.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:25 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I would have thought the exact opposite. That he toyed with them with TK and FL more than in Sabers.

dammit thor, forcing a page turn mad

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:26 PM
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ThirdReich
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ILS has got this covered


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:28 PM
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ILS
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Az add him to your ignore list kek. You can read his posts without them clogging the page.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:30 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Az add him to your ignore list kek. You can read his posts without them clogging the page.

Ah, yes, ignore me, you're welcome to have at it responding to my counters too.

Or has veganism made you soft? sad

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:32 PM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Not enough protein.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:48 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not enough protein.

Seems so sad

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:50 PM
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ThirdReich
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What's wrong with Veganism? It's never been veganism itself that's the problem, just the militant activists


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:54 PM
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ILS
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kbro did have a point about some of the stuff I said last page, I don't think all the arguments I made are ironclad, e.g the point about Anakin. They were just general points about why I think it's obvious Dooku isn't supposed to be near Yoda - if Dooku's getting stomped by Anakin, I think it's another reason to think Yoda ragdolling Dooku is gonna be the reality. Not 100% logical proof.. just an observation. Az doesn't accept them either, hence why I'm closing in on this bit about Maul/Opress and the hologram choke. If Az, or even kbro, can get around those, I'll tip my fedora.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:55 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ThirdReich
What's wrong with Veganism? It's never been veganism itself that's the problem, just the militant activists
thumb up


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:56 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
kbro did have a point about some of the stuff I said last page, I don't think all the arguments I made are ironclad, e.g the point about Anakin. They were just general points about why I think it's obvious Dooku isn't supposed to be near Yoda - if Dooku's getting stomped by Anakin, I think it's another reason to think Yoda ragdolling Dooku is gonna be the reality. Not 100% logical proof.. just an observation. Az doesn't accept them either, hence why I'm closing in on this bit about Maul/Opress and the hologram choke. If Az, or even kbro, can get around those, I'll tip my fedora.

I've responded to Dooku vs Oppress vs Ventress twice bro, but keep making excuses.

And I'm assuming you're referring to Stover's hyperbole as the basis of your assertion that Anakin stomped Dooku which interestingly enough remains the only source to potray the fight as one sidedly as it does and happens to be the version of the novel that most contradicts the movie's depiction.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 03:02 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Does it become more valid when I spell it out for you?

Maul's got plenty of great feats/accolades/hype etc. So does Opress. When an inferior duo took on Dooku, they nearly killed him. Together they outweigh Dooku.

Are these three Yoda quotes your only basis for Dooku being above the Maul bros, or do you have something else?

Your argument would fly, but Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress is a severe limiting factor. If not for that, if our only notion of Dooku's abilities was his performance against Yoda, perhaps the quotes would work for you. Then, Yoda not wrecking Dooku would make sense, because it just looks like two close competitors fighting.

When you add in the Ventress/Opress fight, and compare it to Sidious vs Maul/Opress, it shows exactly what levels these Sith are on - two very different levels. So now, we need an explanation for why Dooku did so well against Sidious' peer.


The issue here is that you are once again adding in sabers to the mix. In a pure Force fight, Dooku would annihilate Ventress and Savage, and you've not managed to contest that notion (so far). Them being an inferior team to Maul and Savage is not an issue against Dooku here, because the arguments you have presented so far only restrict Dooku to being the Zabrak's inferior in sabers (even that is arguable, but I'll leave it for another time), but they do not tie him down in the realm of the Force, where you already essentially conceded that Yoda not wrecking Dooku makes sense if the Ventress/Savage fight is not factored in - which it isn't as it doesn't limit Dooku as a Force user in any capacity.

quote:
People have come up with varying reasons, like Yoda being rusty, him having time to grow before RotS, him wanting to take it easy on Dooku, him not being a vicious fighter in general (I like the latter two). For whatever reason, Yoda didn't give it 100% when he fought Dooku, he didn't even try to TK him, and it's not because he couldn't.


This is factually false. George Lucas himself, the highest authority in Star Wars, wrote this piece of text personally:

YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA_(continuing):_The end for you, Count, this is.

--Attack of the Clones script


So Yoda went into the fight with the intended purpose of killing Dooku. If he could have crumbled Dooku into a ball with the Force like you say, he would have.

And just to make it absolutely clear, the scripts were recognized as on par with the movies in terms of canonicity back when the old system was in place. With Disney's takeover the G/T/C/S/N canon system is no longer a thing, but the scripts should remain perfectly valid Legends material nonetheless:

"The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon."

--Leland Chee


quote:
They were too evenly matched, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't do anything other than deflect Dooku's attacks. Yoda may have attempted to defeat Dooku, by deflecting his lightning, but that's very different from attempting to slap him into a coma with TK. He didn't do that.

Neither bested the other, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't try to best Dooku in any way other than deflecting his attacks.

He had to resort to his lightsaber, in that one instance, because, as is obvious, he wasn't willing to employ serious telekinetic force to Dooku, for whatever reason.

I get your argument. You're saying Yoda didn't attack Dooku because it wouldn't have yielded positive results. I'm saying Yoda could have, and chose not to, for whatever reason.


Um, no. Yoda's goal was Dooku's death. The quote states Yoda needed to use his lightsaber in his fight against Dooku despite praising his command of the Force just a sentence earlier. Therefore, Yoda could not have killed Dooku with the Force, if he needed to resort to his lightsaber.

quote:
The quotes you've provided only work if you remove context, which is Star Wars debating in a nutshell these days. From a storytelling standpoint, from a feat standpoint... from a standpoint of sanity... I find it incredibly hard to believe that Dooku can stand up to Sidious and Yoda. You have to create an unrealistic gap between Maul and Dooku to bridge this very realistic gap between Dooku and Sidious.

Dooku's an apprentice, just like Maul. Sidious is the master. It's not just thematic, it makes perfect sense.


Define "realistic" and "unrealistic". To me, the only thing in Star Wars that is unrealistic is that which is not logical. Everything that can be argued using logic is realistic, because most of the time, there is no canonical answer to these matchups, so even things like Obi-Wan vs Valkorion are realistic stances if a logical argument can be made, no matter how much autistic screeching that would cause.

However, in the case of Dooku and Maul, the former has been portrayed as superior since day one. Just compare their respective performances against Obi-Wan. Then we have additional quotes like these:

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in_Attack of the Clones.

--Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.

--Legacy of the Jedi


There was also a head-to-head article stating that Maul would be "no match" for Dooku, specifically because of the latter's Force abilities. And while, that, to my understanding, isn't canon, it still goes to show that the gap I'm creating here isn't even close to being "unrealistic" if even officially published material has Dooku as Maul's vast superior.

In addition, we have Plagueis musing Dooku would be a worthy candidate for a Sith apprentice should Sidious blow his cover, and objective quotes saying Dooku could have one day been Yoda's equal in the Force, or in other words, his potential equals Yoda's, and given how aged the Count is, he should have attained most of it by the time of his death. It makes total sense and is perfectly realistic to say he's closer to Yoda and Sidious than he is to Maul.

Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

--Insider 113


But ultimately, whether any of this makes sense to you is irrelevant, because you are just a fan, like me, and not a canonical authority. If you want to prove me wrong, you have to use logic, not claims about something being unrealistic in your personal opinion.

quote:
Your math seems on point. So now I need to ask:

If Dooku ragdolling Ventress is fair game for evidence, why isn't Sidious choking Dooku across the galaxy?


So your argument here is that because Ventress was Dooku's loyal apprentice, she would not try resist or fight back, which is the exact same logic I use to dismiss Sidious choking Dooku via holo. Fair enough, I would not want to employ double standards. However, fortunately for me, I do have an instance where Dooku dominates Ventress and she definitely was trying to resist:

(please log in to view the image)

Again, I see no reason why Dooku wouldn't be able to dominate both Savage and Ventress at the same time.


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Last edited by Azronger on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 03:36 PM

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 03:34 PM
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Rockydonovang
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None of this is needed:
quote:
In composite yoda as of rots is>yoda as of aotc

The quotes don't apply to ROTS yoda who went through two massive confrontations in both Dark Rendevous and in the final arc of season 6 in TCW.

That Dooku can't be ragdolled by AOTC Yoda proves nothing regarding ROTS Yoda.

None of these arguments are relevant or necessary smile

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 03:39 PM
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NewGuy01
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Relativity, not parity.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:07 PM
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Azronger
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I'd like to correct myself regarding the head-to-head. It does not state Maul would be "no match" but rather that it would be "no contest":

(please log in to view the image)


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:09 PM
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ChocolateMuesli
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Az winning here.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:20 PM
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Darth Thor
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Interesting. I hope ILS kicks butt in his response.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:21 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Relativity, not parity.

Fair.
Only applies to aotc Yoda anyway

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:32 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
I'd like to correct myself regarding the head-to-head. It does not state Maul would be "no match" but rather that it would be "no contest":

(please log in to view the image)

You realize similar sources have Fisto>TPM Maul and TPM Maul>Dooku?

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 04:33 PM
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Azronger
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Are you senile? I already acknowledged it's non-canonicity.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:14 PM
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