Because you are exaggerating his feats through a bad context. I guess.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Because of a snow storm that disabled my power all of Friday into Saturday, The Ellimist has agreed to give me a one day extension for that lost time.
However, I will still aim to finish the post by tonight, although likely in the midnight ET range. Sourcing takes a quite deal of time, which I am doing now.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
SUMMARY: This argument disproves a long-standing notion that, because Darth Vader fights comparably to Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II, Vader can replicate Starkiller’s feats or defend against his attacks. Immediately before he fights Darth Vader, Starkiller expends a vast amount of his power destroying his clones and the platforms around him. Consequently, Starkiller notes that he is exhausted more than ever before, which includes him surviving thirteen days without food nor sleep and sustaining himself solely off the Force. Directly thereafter, Darth Vader and Starkiller duel, yet Starkiller gains the upper-hand by attacking Vader with Force lightning and moves to strike Vader down. However, Starkiller is prevented by a Force vision that flashes before him, allowing Darth Vader to escape. Nevertheless, since Starkiller is demonstrably on par or superior to Darth Vader while in a greatly weakened state, it logically holds that Vader is not comparable to him under normal conditions.
In my first post, I emphasize that, while in his thirteen-day trial, he avoids even thinking about the past because it wastes too much energy with his life at his stake. Now, I want to stress another point that, even before Starkiller destroys the cloning facility, he obliterates the Salvation. The novelization notes that Starkiller fears that this feat may kill him like it did Galen Marek on the Death Star a year prior [1], indicating he releases almost the totality of his Force reserves. Starkiller falls unconscious by doing this and, when he awakes, is so exhausted that he struggles to even stand (click for reference). Note that Starkiller does not rest between this point and his confrontation with Darth Vader. As my response to The Ellimist later highlights, there is no remedy to exhausting one’s Force reserves besides meditation. Thus, between using the Force in such extreme ways twice-over, along with extensive fighting in the intermediate time, it is clear he is far closer to death than full strength when fighting Darth Vader.
If The Ellimist cannot convincingly and fully discredit this argument, all arguments made by him for The Force Unleashed II (e.g. the powering of the cannon) are rendered irrelevant.
Whoa, whoa. Because the text notes that Starkiller, for a single attack mind you, uses “all his rage, all his grief,” that means he is radically amplified for the entire fight?
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Your argument rests on the following assumptions:
- Starkiller’s rage amplified his abilities.
- Starkiller’s rage amplified his abilities so much that it negated his exhaustion.
- Starkiller’s rage maintained throughout the entire fight.
I will go through the three points individually.
1. DOES STARKILLER’S RAGE AMPLIFY HIS ABILITIES?
You set a dangerous precedent by automatically assuming that an enraged individual must benefit from an exceptional boost in power. The issue with that is that most Sith, like Darth Malgus, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader, already use their rage and grief under normal conditions. For example, in The Force Unleashed II, the text refers to “Vader’s rage” as synonymous with his natural power output. Following the logic, Darth Vader using all his available power readily translates to “all his rage” - yet you would argue this means he is amplified, would you not?
Your assumption likely comes from a misconception that rage equates to Force rage. However, there is an important distinction, which is what separates Maul’s hate-filled blows against Qui-Gon Jinn with his performance against Darth Sidious on Hypori. Force rage, which is likely what you are thinking of when you refer to a "rage amp," is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time." Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy,” hence why it is not commonly used in combat.
Given we have established there is no inherent basis to assume Starkiller is using Force rage, we should analyze the effects of Starkiller’s rage and see if it aligns with the description and examples of Force rage. If it does, that strengthens your case. Otherwise, the argument is dead.
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The behavior Starkiller demonstrates is outright contradictory to what is expected with the blind, continuous fury of Force rage. Immediately after his first attack, Starkiller breaks off and goes to Juno Eclipse. Darth Vader blocks him, yet Starkiller asks him to get out of the way! What he should be doing, if he was actually using Force rage like you claim, is continually attacking Darth Vader like Obi-Wan Kenobi against Darth Maul on Naboo. Further, when Darth Vader refuses, Starkiller attacks with less strength than before, which either indicates the effects of Force rage are already ebbing - meaning Starkiller is in an even weaker state for the rest of the fight due to the Force deprivation that follows Force rage - or he was never in a frenzy in the first place. The fact Starkiller gains a burst of clarity, in which he realizes that he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair, destroys the notion he is consumed by his rage.
2. DOES STARKILLER’S RAGE AMPLIFY HIS ABILITIES SO MUCH THAT IT NEGATED HIS EXHAUSTION?
If Starkiller’s rage is amplifying his abilities and negating his exhaustion, we should see a noticeable improvement in his performance against Darth Vader between his fight in the cloning facility minutes mere minutes prior - in which the text does not even mention “rage” - and their current fight on the outside platforms. However, Starkiller blatantly performs better in the first fight. During it, he incapacitates Darth Vader with Force lightning via incorporating it within the patterns of attack, whereas in the later fight he has to trick Darth Vader into lowering his guard and then unleashes Force lightning at a specific point of vulnerability. This discrepancy not only shows that Starkiller never received “an amp” the second fight but further substantiates my argument that Starkiller becomes more and more exhausted as he fights Darth Vader.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
3. IS STARKILLER’S RAGE MAINTAINED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FIGHT?
You write a simple equation that rage + exhaustion = rage, but this fails to account for the degree of rage and exhaustion in question.
You ironically cite Darth Maul’s fight against Darth Sidious on Hypori, but this illustrates my point. Darth Maul erupts in a Force rage, but once he presses a retreating Darth Sidious against the cave wall, his vision blurs, he gasps for breath, and his strength evaporates. While Darth Maul is able to temporarily wash away his exhaustion, it cannot be maintained for a long period of time and, as aforementioned, further drains Maul of “huge amounts of energy” when it is over. This creates a dilemma for you, since The Force Unleashed II novelization makes explicit emphasis that not only is the Darth Vader fight prolonged, but there are entire conversations scattered in between attacks.
It is next-to-impossible that Starkiller maintains his hypothetical Force rage for the entire fight when Darth Maul burns out in a few moments. I highlighted in blue Starkiller asking Darth Vader to join the Rebellion during the fight, which is as far away as Force rage as one can get. Even if you want to ignore everything I have said above and say Starkiller was in a Force rage early in the fight, he clearly is not at the end. Thus, Starkiller would not only suffer from the exhaustion I outlined earlier, but also the additional and severe fatigue of Force rage. This means one of two things: Starkiller defeats Darth Vader while in a state so ludicrously bad that it is hard to fathom, or he never uses Force rage in the first place.
Your pick.
4. OH, AND BY THE WAY . . .
You never even responded to my argument.
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As aforementioned, Starkiller has an entire fight with Darth Vader minutes before Vader tosses Juno Eclipse and Starkiller gets temporarily enraged.
Spoiler alert: Starkiller wins.
Everything I stated in my original post stands. If Starkiller, while teetering on death, can defeat Darth Vader, you are better off “scaling” Vader to Starkiller’s dirty boots.
It genuinely seems like you are not even convinced of your argument.
You should not be either since, as you likely know, what Dooku does in the Revenge of the Sith is inconsistent with every other source on the subject. I originally anticipated this to be your main argument, so I was surprised to see you made both the one above and this one because they are mutually exclusive. If Force users can instantly replenish their Force reserves at will, tell me why Darth Maul is so exhausted on Hypori? Or, why is Starkiller teetering on the brink of death after thirteen days of meditation? It does not make sense. Either Dooku knows a specific Force technique that not even Luke Skywalker knows (more on that soon), or the event is one of many inconsistencies within the Star Wars universe and should be discarded. Whatever the case, you have no argument.
Force users can temporarily block their physical fatigue by way of the Force - which to an extent may be what Dooku does - but there is an intrinsic difference in that and replenishing their Force reserves. With Starkiller, he is not just physically tired: his Force reserves are almost empty! After the attack, Starkiller notes, “The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.” One logically cannot use the Force - or deplete more Force energy - to gain Force energy. Indeed, Luke Skywalker, who burns away a portion of his Force reserves by fighting and imbuing a portion of his power into a girl, notes:
Yes, of course Darth Vader is skilled. However, not all sources portray him that way. My explicit point is that Fightsaber - the source you are using to argue that Darth Vader grew vastly in power between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back - disagrees. In other words, you are cherry picking what parts of a source you want to use. To preface, You baselessly assume that Darth Vader toyed with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. You may not know this, but many sources - perhaps a majority, including primary sources like the script and The Essential Guide to Characters which you cite later on - convey that Luke legitimately contended with Vader on Bespin. Further, most of the sources that state Luke was no match for Vader make no mention of toying either, just that the fight was brutal. Luke’s comparison between Gethzerion and Vader, as I discuss in greater detail later on, is the only quote I can think of that implies Vader went easy, and even then the context is ambiguous.
Regardless, you would have to argue the author is being intentionally deceptive and withholding information from the reader, since Fightsaber never even implies what you are suggesting. There is no reason why Vader’s technique would suddenly collapse, even if he were toying with Luke Skywalker. If anything, Vader’s alleged toying would demonstrate his ”advanced polish of study,” similar to Dooku versus Obi-Wan Kenobi in Attack of the Clones. Further, Fightsaber stating, “Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers,” clearly does not mean Luke “held up against” a holding back Vader. That would be a crucial left out detail that completely redefines the meaning of the quote. The same applies for the ”advanced polish of study” quote.
You are going to need another source to argue Darth Vader vastly grew between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I am getting second-hand embarrassment right now. There must be some misunderstanding of my argument since I completely agree that the Emperor’s lightning hit Darth Vader. In fact, that is my entire point! The “full force” in “Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master's evil lightning upon himself” can mean either “full potency” or “full impact.” Below are four examples of “full force” and “full impact” functioning interchangeably.
> The anticyclonic ridge strengthened on its northern side and interrupted the full force of the colder air mass.
> Hulk punches Thor, but the Viking god dodges the blow. Instead, the wall is hit with the full force of Hulk’s blow!
> The building took the full force of the blast.
> Draped over the bench like this the body takes the full force of recoil, with no flexibility to absorb the jolt.
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What we know:
A.) “Full force” is synonymous with “full potency” and “full impact.”
B.) Darth Vader took the “full impact” of the Emperor’s lightning.
Note: for unknown reasons, you extensively argue why this should be case in your last post, noting “all of [the lightning] in view very clearly arcs back at Vader,” so there should be no dispute here.
Put two and two together and, within the context of the quote, my “full impact” interpretation perfectly works for “full force.”
We have two possible values for X (what “full force” means): I and P. It is unknown whether both values work, or just one. However, we definitively know that value I, “full impact,” satisfies the conditions for X. On the contrary, there is no evidence that value P, “full potency,” works. All you have cited thus far is the quote itself, which is circular logic. Further, the Dark Empire Endnotes is a retelling of already defined events. Summaries generally recount pre-established information and rarely create new pieces of continuity. Thus, it is unlikely that the source would have created value P rather than just work with the already created value I. All things considered, either X is value P or X is undefined. Either way, your point fails.
Remember, you are the one who started this argument. The burden of proof is on you to prove that “full force,” which can already be translated to a canonical interpretation of “full impact,” is actually referring to “full potency.” Exceptional arguments require exceptional proof, but regretfully you have none.
You are missing the point.
I agree that a single misstep by the Emperor does not indicate much - even the most powerful Sith Lord in history is not omniscient. However, when there are five instances of the Emperor’s powers failing him in a three-minute timespan, red flags should be raised. It is far too unlikely to chalk up to coincidence alone, especially considering the cosmic significance of the events. As I note in my first post, “Whether it was because he was blinded by rage, blocked by the will of the Force, taken off guard, or all of the above, it is clear the Emperor lost control of his powers and thus would not be capable of utilizing them effectively.”
Also, no. Darth Vader does not block the Emperor’s foresight when he grabs him. I do not know why you stated that since you know it is not supported by any source whatsoever, especially considering the Emperor’s foresight fails him moments earlier with explicit mention that Darth Vader has nothing to do with it [2]. However, early drafts of Return of the Jedi, albeit clearly not definitive, indicate that the netherworld blocks the Emperor’s perception of Darth Vader’s betrayal [3]. This further substantiates the likelihood that, given this event is the most pivotal in galactic history and the fulfillment of the Force’s will, mysterious factors are at play.
Pardon me? How is the fact that the Emperor is unable to levitate out of the pit after being thrown in, nor guide himself to land on the many walkways he fell past, irrelevant? Those are two blatant examples that the Emperor lost control of his power and, thus, could not utilize them effectively. If your issue is that this is exclusive to Canon, you are wrong. The walkways are visible in countless Legends images, from paintings to photos (click for reference).
Darth Vader had spent “minutes” focusing and preparing “his very fiber of [his] being” for the attack, then, “with a final surge of strength,” ambushes the Emperor and immediately pins his arms into place. This makes the event utterly not combat applicable, which is obvious, but further calls into question the feat given Vader is operating a level of power far beyond his normal output.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
In my last post, I extensively explained how The Force Unleashed novelization holds greater authority than the video game. However, The Ellimist and I are in dispute if this argument holds relevance given the specific rules of the thread. Since negotiations are still proceeding as I write this post, I will refrain from commenting on it for the time being, but may respond in my third post depending on what we decide. That being said, my foremost rebuttal to the Fusion Accelerator Cannon is the TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL? argument at the start. Since Darth Vader cannot be scaled of Starkiller, none of Starkiller’s feats are relevant to the debate. Nevertheless, I am addressing this because I do not believe this is a feat for Starkiller either.
There are two interpretations of the Fusion Accelerator Cannon event: the Databank explicitly states the cannon can be reconfigured into a superweapon in a way that resembles Starkiller’s actions, but such is wholly coincidental and, rather, Starkiller directly supplies the energy needed to split a Star Destroyer in two - or - Starkiller’s actions resembling said alterations is not a coincidence and means Starkiller reconfigured it into a superweapon. Of these two, one should obviously accept the most logical and consistent take. The fact The Ellimist self-professes his interpretation to be a “ludicrous” display of power in his first post highlights which argument should be taken seriously.
Mine.
However, The Ellimist’s interpretation is irrelevant regardless, given it hinges on Starkiller supplying the power input and forcing it through the barrel of the cannon. Sourcebooks state that the power input for laser cannons are the same for mere blasters, but the energy goes through a series of amplifying processes in the barrel that dramatically increase its potency. Standard turbolasers have an additional layer of focusing properties, thus tripping the power output compared to a laser cannon. Planetary turbolasers take it to another level, having dispersal tubes and cooling sleeves helping to maintain stability at such levels of power. Thus, the argument that Starkiller supplied the power input is laughably inconsequential given how dramatically it would be amplified. If the power of a blaster bolt can be converted into the output of turbolasers, Starkiller’s vastly more potent Force lightning would clearly yield the power needed to destroy a Star Destroyer. Interestingly, Hayden Blackman, the main supervisor of The Force Unleashed, even wrote The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology!
In my first post, I note that all cannon functions turn back online once Starkiller charges it with Force lightning, indicating he reactivates it. The Ellimist argues this means Starkiller “supercharges it and there is lots of residual energy, given that Galen does this to a hyperdrive engine.” Regardless if true or not, there is mutual consensus that the barrel’s functions are back online once Starkiller does-what-he-does to the coils. Indeed, the barrel is visibly activated and glowing when the Star Destroyer-destroying blast fires (click for reference). Thus, there should be no dispute that Starkiller’s energies would have coursed through the activated barrel, been unfathomably amplified many times over, then fired.
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While these points cover the bulk of The Ellimist latest arguments, I will touch upon a few that do not.
To quote you, this is an “absurd non sequitur.” I never argued Starkiller had to understand the intricacies of the Fusion Accelerator Cannon. Starkiller may not know the details of reconfiguration, but that does not negate the idea that he did reconfigure the cannon, especially considering his actions resemble the process listed in the Databanks.
This . . . never happens. The energy within the coils remains after Starkiller charges up his telekinetic push. It only goes away once the cannon fires.
The cannon fire that Starkiller initiates appears exactly the same as the standard cannon fire (click for reference). All of the charges have the bluish purple lightning-esque effects. The only distinction is that the cannon fire initiated by Starkiller appears larger and more volatile, but that is obvious given the blast had enough power to cut a Star Destroyer in two. The point of dispute is what gave it such power.
Further, you are blatantly contradicting yourself by arguing that the cannon outright fires Starkiller’s Force lightning. You argue a few quotes down that “any weapons system involves converting between different forms of energy” to my point that, in the Nintendo DS version, the cannon visibly fires projectiles indisputably distinct from Force energy. So, does the cannon convert Starkiller’s energy into something else (click for reference) - or - is the cannon simply a means for Starkiller to transport his own Force lightning into space? At the moment, it seems you are content at arguing whichever one benefits your point.
Your offers are unwarranted. We are in disagreement over what happens in the PC version: you argue that Starkiller powered the cannon, I argue that Starkiller reactivated the cannon. The fact the Nintendo DS version explicitly aligns with my interpretation further substantiates my case over yours since the Nintendo DS version appears to be specifically based on the PC version. That is all.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Mar 8th, 2018 at 08:01 AM
When I first read this, I thought you were joking . . . until the harsh reality dawned on me.
To point out the obvious, Yoda was physically blocked from moving forward. He is stuck on the outer edge of the Senate pod, blocked by a metal bar and a ledge (click for reference)(click for reference). Note I provided two pictures - one from the movie and one from a Legends sourcebook - in case the movie image was ineligible since this is a “Legends only” debate. Further, it is stated that Yoda not only absorbed, but “deflected” the Emperor’s lightning back at him. Guess who couldn’t do that? Galen Marek.
Thus, the only comparison to be made between Yoda and Galen Marek does not favor your case.
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Since you were very vague about what this meant to you, I asked for further clarification on Google Hangouts and you stated, “well i would default to it being a durability feat but reserve the right to argue otherwise.” Thus, I will address it as a durability feat - -
-- and the main issue with it being a durability feat is its relevance. Despite surviving Galen Marek’s suicidal explosion, Marek still thrashed Darth Vader like a ragdoll with telekinesis, then as Starkiller brought Vader to his knees with Force lightning. Thus, strong durability has nothing to do with whether or not he can resist Revan’s Force attacks, but simply that the Force attacks may not significantly damage him. However, telekinetic attacks rarely physically hurt other Force-sensitives (inconsistent exceptions aside). They are mainly used to disrupt the flow of engagement, gain an upper-hand in battle, or outright subdue the opponent into defeat. This is likely how both Revan and Darth Vader will attempt to use the Force in combat - not by outright shattering their opponent into oblivion.
However, Darth Vader’s handling of the suicide explosion is not even that impressive. If you are going to use all three versions of The Force Unleashed interchangeably, I see no reason why I should limit myself unless you want to concede that the novelization trumps all other mediums. In the comic, the potency of the explosion is tested against a nearby Royal Guard. The results were . . . disappointing (click for reference). Although the Royal Guard obviously died, the explosion had little effect on the armor, leaving only scorch marches. Notice also a random stormtrooper in view, who likewise just has a few paint blemishes. I do not consider this “lowballing,” but rather objectively looking at the only way one can gauge its potency - the effects. As to how Galen Marek’s most potent attack could be so insignificant, it is likely that it was foremost concentrated against the Emperor. Note that Galen Marek holds onto the Emperor when the event happens, indicating the brunt of the energy transferred between them (click for reference). What follows simply appears to be a strong telekinetic wave (click for reference).
Plus, The Force Unleashed already defines the upper limits of Darth Vader’s durability: an exploding shield generator. I think you would agree that Galen Marek’s immediate explosion against the Emperor is far more potent than such, substianting my argument that the telekinetic wave that hit Darth Vader or the Royal Guard is in no way compatible with Marek’s initial release of energy.
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In the old Star Wars comics, an impersonator of Ben Kenobi detonates an explosion that destroys the upper portion of the Iron Tower. It is difficult to visibly tell, but the tower is not very large, since the imposter falls all the way to the ground yet lives long enough to say dying words to Luke Skywalker [4]. However, caught in the center of the explosion, Darth Vader is near-mortally wounded and left for dead. Years after publication, Star Wars Galaxy Magazine picked it up and wrote that Wrenga Jixton found the unconscious Darth Vader and nursed him back to health, emphasizing this is not just a one-off comic from the 80s but has repeated and deep impact on the lore. It is also mentioned in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (2008) and A New Hope: The Life of Luke Skywalker (2009).
This point is continued in the THAT’S SO REVAN! section.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
The opening crawl of Dark Empire II #1 states the Emperor “empowered” Sedriss “long before” his first clone death by Luke Skywalker and Leia Solo. However, the Emperor wrote that Sedriss “is not the stuff of a true apprentice” afterward, since the article thanks Sedriss for helping relocate his spirit into a second clone body. Thus, the Emperor would have factored Sedriss’ empowerment into his assessment. As to your point that Sedriss could defeat Luke Skywalker, that is clearly referring to him calling upon the charged energy of the atmosphere, since Luke instantly overpowered Sedriss in combat. Given the scan below, I cannot help but ask: have you ever even read Dark Empire?
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With that in mind, the article is clearly discussing the dark side disciples under the role of ”Emperor Palpatine,” going into detail of how they were utilized and their varying levels of power within the context of the Galactic Empire. Constant references are even made to the “Empire,” “Imperial Court,” “campaign against the Jedi,” “dark side adepts,” etc. The quote is simply stating that Sedriss, while not as strong as a Dark Lord of the Sith like Darth Vader, was still the most formidable of all the dark side adepts Palpatine trained. Taking it to mean anything beyond that is willful ignorance. That is, unless you want to argue Dooku and Darth Maul are also “moderate Force sensitives” and “not the stuff of true apprentices,” which would be highly amusing albeit not entirely unexpected for you.
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The segment is specifically referring to the creation of alchemical monsters - or the warping of creatures into hideous dark side abominations. Palpatine muses that, while Darth Vader is obviously not a terentatek, he is similar in that Palpatine twisted the light-hearted Chosen One into a hideous, sociopathic Jedi killer. The context is literally right there. I even underlined it for you. How you can argue it applies to his other Sith apprentices is beyond me, but no, it has nothing to do with power whatsoever.
The statement is explicitly referring to lightsaber skill, so no.
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I know that you never knew about the character until you looked him on Wookieepedia, but Cronal is not even a powerful Force user. The text explicitly correlates “the shadow nerve network of meltmassif lacing his body,” which is a strange substance that Cronal can manipulate and control with his mind and not some strange power-amplifying device, to Kar Vastor’s “fundamental connection to the Dark.” It is not saying that Kar Vastor’s Force powers are on par with Cronal’s. However, even if we want to rewrite the quote so it says, “Kar Vastor is far weaker than Cronal,” it does not matter since Kar Vastor is no longer on Haruun Kal.
There is little distinction between the Emperor being “alarmed by [Gethzerion and the Nightsister’s] growing power and purposely stranded them on Dathomir,” and Palpatine being “troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force and commanding Count Dooku to eliminate her.” In fact, the quotes are eerily similar. The Emperor is intrinsically a character all about preserving his power and fearing betrayal, withholding knowledge from even the simpleton dark side adepts so that there is no conceivable way they could encroach him, so it is nowhere near as impressive as you make it out to be. Rest assured, if Revan was running around in the era, the Emperor would not be indifferent.
More importantly, the quotes placing Darth Vader above Gethzerion by way of Vader being the second most powerful individual in the galaxy are outright contradicted by Abeloth and Sekot, both of whom are undisputedly more powerful Vader. ” Thus, the quotes are literally false, carry no definitive value, and cannot be used.
I hope not, for your sake.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Darth Vader is ”relatively close” to the Emperor in Return of the Jedi? What are you talking about?
Foremost, the Emperor’s optimism about Darth Vader seems to quickly die off. The Emperor later writes that he is confident that Vader could ”never” succeed him, and is so disappointed in Vader’s situation that he is looking through a ”pool of minor wizards and political sycophants” for a replacement. That certainly does not indicate Vader has the raw potential of the Emperor.
Second, Darth Vader’s own thoughts on the situations deteriorate as well. In Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, he believes that he will one day have powers equal to that of the Emperor. However, Vader eventually recognizes that ”he could not hope to defeat” and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat” the Emperor. Again, if Vader’s raw potential was comparable to the Emperor’s power, then these statements would make no sense.
Lastly, so what? Even if we take the Emperor seriously and that Darth Vader’s potential is comparable to his own, why would that translate meaningfully into the fight? The Emperor also tells Darth Maul that, “Someday, you might become stronger than I," indicating Maul’s potential surpasses Vader’s. However, Maul’s applicable power is vastly below the Emperor, even despite decades of extensive training that likely far surpasses Vader’s own. Between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, the Emperor telepathically brings Darth Vader to his knees. While this was an ambush attack, the sheer dominance displayed here - the Emperor sensing a rebellious thought from across the galaxy, then utterly crushing Vader - makes clear it clear that Vader never reaches a level of power comparable to that of the Emperor.
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It amazes me that this argument still exists. No, that does not lend credence to your point since he uses “maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor” interchangeably with “he is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.” Unless you want to argue all of them are close to the Emperor - and at this point I would not be surprised if you tried - whether or not he used “fifty” or “ninty” as the number is irrelevant. Besides, George Lucas saying Darth Vader’s ”not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky,” does not seem very Emperor-esque to me.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
This section is divided into three difficult arguments.
1. KAR VASTOR’S POWER IS NEBULOUS
A. Is Haruun Kal a dark side nexus?
B. Is Kar Vastor the embodiment of the jungle?
C. Is Kar Vastor’s power difficult to gauge?
D. How reliable is Nick Rostu as a narrator?
2. MACE WINDU IS MORE POWERFUL THAN KAR VASTOR
3. THE CHERRY PICKER: A STAR WARS STORY
Between it all, this nonsense “Kar Vastor scaling” is thoroughly debunked.
1. KAR VASTOR’S POWER IS NEBULOUS
INTENT: Counter ”Darth Vader > Kar Vastor” scaling.
SUMMARY: Kar Vastor is independently a powerful Force user, but his legendary “raw power” comes from the limitless dark side energies of the jungle around him. This is beyond simply using a dark side nexus: Kar Vastor is the literal embodiment of jungle and intricately connected to its properties. However, the energies Kar Vastor calls upon never permanently rests within him, but rather flow or radiate in and out from him. As consequence, Kar Vastor can only use a finite amount of his “raw power” at once, and it is demonstrably impossible to get a proper gauge of his actual power. However, since I think my next two points end the debate, I relocated the argument to a separate document to save space: https://www.writeurl.com/publish/vl3k6z3ori516p7qoion.
SUMMARY: Your entire case is dependent upon Kar Vastor being more powerful than Mace Windu. Even if Darth Vader is indeed more powerful than Kar Vastor, the point would only hold a grain of relevance if Kar Vastor is, in turn, more powerful than Mace Windu. However, note that almost everything we know about Kar Vastor’s power comes from Mace himself. The issue is that Mace has proven himself to be the mother of all unreliable narrators. Almost everything he says about Kar Vastor’s power relative to himself is demonstrably and quantifiably false. Thus, your “link” between Darth Vader and Revan is nonexistent.
A. FASTER?
Laughably false.
Mace Windu casually intercepts Kar Vastor’s attack, then releases him faster than Vastor can react:
Mace Windu strikes Kar Vastor a bajillion and one times, completely overwhelming him with raw speed:
B. IMMENSELY MORE POWERFUL?
As outlined above, Kar Vastor has near-infinite raw power, so if Mace Windu is referring to that then the statement is obviously accurate. However, if we take it as combat applicable power - the only relevant basis you can argue Darth Vader’s superiority in - then it is simply not true. Mace Windu consistently rivals Kar Vastor’s telekinetic power on Haruun Kal, even despite being vastly hindered by a dark side nexus.
The two collide in a war of physical strength and Force energy with neither gaining the upper hand:
Mace Windu casually replicates Kar Vastor’s telekinetic power:
You argued in your last post that I was “cherry picking” Mace Windu’s advantages over Kar Vastor, then cited Vastor telekinetically influencing Mace twice. However, the first time took Mace by surprise, and the second was a direct continuation of the first attack. Besides, Mace can likewise do the same in return:
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
As a *final* point, Fact File, which is what you are using to argue Mace Windu and Yoda are the two most powerful Jedi to ever walk the Jedi Temple circa The Phantom Menace, also writes in issue #59 that Mace Windu has “powers on par with those of the venerable Yoda” [11]. Therefore, Revan being below Mace in the same source that puts Mace an equal to Yoda is by no means a disgrace. However, do you really want to publicly argue that Darth Vader two months after Revenge of the Sith is vastly more powerful than Yoda as of The Phantom Menace/Attack of the Clones? Well, you already are, but I do not think you understood the full ramifications of your argument until now. The fact is you cannot simultaneously use Fact File to argue Mace Windu is above Revan without also admitting Mace Windu is on par with Yoda [11].
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Frankly, it should just be self-evident that this quote is false, regardless of author intent. There is a consistent trend of 19 BBY Darth Vader struggling against every named and unnamed Jedi he comes across. The idea that he can struggle so significantly against the likes of Sha Koon yet be Mace Windu or Yoda’s superior is absurd! There is nothing to be ashamed about regarding 19 BBY Darth Vader - no one expects him to be powerful a few weeks or month after Mustafar. Simply put, the author is wrong to claim 19 BBY Darth Vader is comparable, yet alone superior, to the high tiers. So, please, stop acting like some cripple who gets “speed-blitzed” by characters you cannot even Google since they have no name is grossly more powerful than one of the most prodigal, masterful, and accomplished Force users in history. I look forward to either your concession or the header of your next post being: “Can Yoda even hurt Vader? 19 BBY Darth Vader >>> Yoda scaling.” your concession.
Your rebuttal makes no sense. Yes, the mechanisms of the talisman converts the raw power inside to a plague that turns individual into rakghouls. The issue is that Darth Vader knew this going into the fight with Celeste Moure. This is not any grand revelation to him. The text stating Darth Vader feels the power of the Muur Talisman blatantly means he senses its energies. The talisman is a powerful dark side nexus, but as explained in my first post, it is vastly inferior to the Star Map, let alone the Star Forge. Your argument that Celeste Morne is more powerful than Karness Muur because she can resist his telepathic temptations is ludicrous. There is a noted distinction in Muur’s telepathic effects between those who call upon his power and those who do not, hence why Celeste is so fearful of using the Muur Talisman. Then, you allege that Darth Vader plans to raise an army of rakghouls to kill the Emperor, which is the farthest reaching theory I have ever seen. We outright see a picture immediately after the hypothetical battle with no rakghouls anywhere.
You propose three possible reasons for why Darth Vader thinks Karness Muur’s power will raise him above the Emperor: he underestimates the Emperor, overestimates himself, or overestimates Muur. Of the three, the third option is the one we can most quickly eliminate since Vader muses he can overthrow the Emperor after outright sensing the energies of the Muur Talisman. There is a direct cause and effect. Unlike Force users, where their auras may not reflect their abilities and it is difficult to gauge the reserves of their power, a concentration of dark side energies in a talisman should be incredibly easy to sense. Next, Vader is clearly not overestimating himself, since he figures he would be subservient to Muur. That leads us to Vader underestimating the Emperor’s power . . . You cite the Mace Windu fight, but that is actually a perfect example of why this would be the case: Palpatine feigns weakness relative to Mace and Anakin completely eats it up.
Again, this is another rebuttal to your crazed idea that Darth Vader as early as 19 BBY could defeat Revan. That clearly is not the case when Karness Muur is at least around Vader’s level, if not significantly above, yet is vastly inferior to Darth Malak.
There is no question that Galen Marek is an absurdly powerful Force user. That is the whole premise of the character, explained in-universe by him having the Force potential of Luke Skywalker himself. However, unlike Luke, Darth Vader specifically trained Galen ”in such a way they he just kept pushing his limitations, seeing how far he could use the Force,” or, in other words, to unleash his raw power must effectively and dramatically. The awesome displays of power you cited are visible manifestations of this. We see a similar situation with Anakin Skywalker circa Attack of the Clones, who despite being intentionally suppressed and capped by Jedi restraints and fear, has moments that few other beings in the galaxy could replicate. For example, Anakin holds back a theta storm, despite Obi-Wan noting hat he was “not certain that Yoda himself could've held this wretched storm back the way you did, for as long as you did.” I fail to see the correlation with Darth Vader, however. In case you have not noticed, a central premise of Vader’s character is that he does not have the Force potential of Luke Skywalker. Nowhere near, actually. In contrast, the whole justification of Galen Marek’s feats is that his raw strength is of the highest tier and has been meticulously trained for unleashing such power.
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My immediate problem with using feats where Galen Marek draws deep into himself or uses the Force for extended periods of time is that, given the enormous raw power disparity, it is difficult to ascribe to Vader. Also, the quote reads, ”He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them,” so it is curious why you neglected the ”might” part, especially since the context more-than-likely not being literal but rather a textbook example of exasperated hyperbole (i.e. “There are so many of them. Maybe thousands!”) Regardless, it is a solid showing for Galen that he Force pushed an undefined amount of destroyed droids plus an undefined amount of barely functioning droids for an undefined amount of time and continuous effort, but it is by no means unprecedented. Nevertheless, I would wager early-career Darth Malgus being vastly above a Jedi that non-chantilly brings down two buildings on top of him is comparably impressive and far easier to directly scale to Revan.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I have no clue where you got ”several hundred meter long” from. That is stated nowhere. As to why it would take ”hours” for Galen Marek to get around, that is because it is blocking the entrance, not that it is infinitely tall and wide despite just being a ”corvette”. As to the actual feat itself, it is obviously good, but I do have the same issues with it as the last: it is prolonged and raw power dependent, so Vader’s relation to it is shaky. Besides, Darth Jadus holding half of a 600 meter Harrower-class Dreadnought together with telekinesis is better.
Why are you comparing capital ships to a terribly damaged corvette?
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There is a generally acknowledged inconsistency in Darth Vader’s power around 0 BBY. The Force Unleashed paints him as quite impressive, but all other the sources have him struggling against the Dark Woman, losing to Darth Maul, quasi-stalemating old Ben Kenobi, and struggling against Luke Skywalker circa The Empire Strikes Back. In other words, Vader is a total shadow of his former self. Generally this is poorly explained by out-of-universe reasoning - that suddenly everyone decided to make Vader far more powerful and the low showings should be ignored. However, this is an in-universe, quote-driven argument why the Galen Marek shenanigans does not add up. To preface, when dealing with young Force prodigies, there is a strange consistency that mindset is everything. Take Vaylin, take Anakin Skywalker, and take Kyp Durron as case-and-point examples of this. Galen Marek is completely in the same boat.
On Kashyyyk, Galen Marek walks into the hut where he grew up and sees a vision of his father’s death. Galen notes that he had never considered that he once had a family - that he had exclusively seen himself as the apprentice of Darth Vader: ”He hadn't realized that there had even been a him to think of outside his relationship with Darth Vader. He had imagined himself simply made, somehow, one of his Master's stranger biological experiments, with no parents and no home but the one he remembered.” After this recognition that he is something more than just Vader’s servant, PROXY notes an immediate and tremendous increase in Galen’s power. Galen reflects back on this on route to the Death Star and concludes that this he has always had this power. Galen has difficulty accepting this, again noting that he had never seen himself as anything greater than the apprentice of Vader.
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Read the dialogue exchange between Darth Vader and Galen Marek posted with the above context in mind. In the novelizaityon, after the first exchange of attacks, Galen Marek is amazed that he is fighting a battle of ”equals” against Darth Vader, yet Galen is still constraining his mindset here - still thinking himself relative to Vader. As the fight progresses, so too does his confidence. As he begins to make jabs at Vader, there is a noticeable improvement in skill, since he is freeing himself from Vader’s psychic hold. When Galen finally realizes “a way to finish the job,” he efficiently wins the fight: repels his telekinetic attack with one of far greater Force, defeats him in lightsaber combat, and thrashes him around with the Force. The comic demonstrates this point best, with Galen kicking Vader to the curb - figuratively and literally - after rejecting Vader tries to place himself about Galen.
Overall, Galen Marek’s base power is unfathomable, which is unsurprising given his Force potential. In fact, The Essential Reader’s Companion outright states it to be ”unfathomable” despite Darth Vader being in the same sentence. Galen was trained to maximize these powers in battle to defeat any opponent”-bar one. His Master.” Vader’s years of psychological conditioning has curbed Galen’s potency by making himself (Vader) intrinsic and indispensable to Galen. Before switching sides, there is even a noticeable trend of Galen justifying his power by being the apprentice of Vader. For example, in the corvette feat you cited above, he begins by thinking, ”A slow smile crept across his face. Why be coy? He was the apprentice of Darth Vader and a servant of the dark side. It didn't pay to creep about in fear of raising his head.” Later, as he first starts to bring down the Star Destroyer, his first thought is, ”Had his Master ever done anything like this?” Galen may be able to defeat any opponent, but the sheer thought of being comparable to Vader in power never seems to even cross Galen’s mind until he frees himself from Vader’s control. Until that point, his thoughts were a direct, “since Vader is all-powerful, I am powerful” line-of-thinking.
Tl;dr: Galen can’t beat Vader because he doesn’t believe in himself. When he believes he can beat Vader, Vader gets punked.
Therefore, it is difficult even to entertain the notion that Darth Vader can replicate Galen Marek’s later feats. Not only is that pure assumption on your part, but it seems to go against the core philosophical insight of the story: that Galen was always better than Vader. Vader retains his dominance throughout much of the story through persona, intelligence, planning, conditioning, and mastery, not raw power. In instances like the Star Destroyer feat, where Galen is drawing deep into near-limitless Force reserves, it is clear that not Vader (nor Revan) has any chance of matching him. Besides, Galen outright telekinetically dominates Vader on the Death Star. The novelization even draws a comparison between it and Darth Vader’s handling of Kento Marek. Ouch. The common rebuttal is that Darth Vader was injured, but that does not remotely justify the event. Darth Vader’s cybernetic injuries would not affect his Force barrier capabilities, and the only possible flesh-based injury that Vader had was ”a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder”. However, since his shoulder guards are highly resistant to lightsaber strikes, I question if this attack even broke skin, let alone meaningfully affected his ability to draw on the Force.
All of this should already be apparent when Galen Marek is bringing down Star Destroyers yet The Force Unleashed II defines Vader’s cap at holding back a TIE fighter though.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
You made a fatal mistake trying to argue Darth Vader has greater durability than Revan. The issue with an X versus Revan durability comparison is that Revan will always either match or surpass his opponent. Revan dies on the Foundry; in Shadow of Revan, he powers and holds his body together through sheer force of will. As a result, he is essentially and demonstrably nigh-indestructible, since Darth Vader would need to unleash an attack potent enough to break Revan’s will over his body and cause lasting injury. The issue is even superweapons have tried and failed this. Since you referenced already referenced the scripted events from the Temple of Sacrifice, and have constantly used game mechanics throughout the debate, there should be no issue bringing it up here.
Revan channels the Machine Core’s power, an ancient Sith device with world-destroying potency, into himself in an attempt to damage/destroy all life in a one kilometer radius. This includes the strike team facing him and likely large portions of the Revanite, Massassi, Jedi, and Sith armies nearby. However, the strike team interrupts his quasi-ritual, causing Revan to lose control of the energies. The power ”overloads” or ”backlashes” inside of him, with the animation showing Force energy brutally course throughout this body. However, Revan near-instantly gets back on his feet and continues fighting, simply noting, “No! I won’t be denied!” Given the power he was wielding, this attack should have instantly disintegrated him, yet his will was unfazed.
Shortly thereafter, the Machine Core becomes an unstable and “violent maelstrom of twisted force essence. indiscriminately striping” Revan’s “life force.” However, this has no effect on Revan, who appears to casually resist it with a Force barrier, continues conjuring dark side aberrations, and yells, "You may have put an end to this plan, but so long as I have breath, I will have my vengeance!" With Darth Vader’s defenses and defenses capping out with an exploding shield generator and the Iron Tower, there is little comparison to be made. Vader does not have the power to mimic or surpass the two attacks listed above, but Revan has the power to defend against such in battle. Also, as to your nonsense Vitiate argument, this is Shadow of Revan we are talking, not Revan Revan. While I will not go into details about the Force lightning square off yet, Revan Reborn falling to the ground after getting hit with lightning is not indicative of Shadow of Revan’s durability whatsoever.
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TELEPATHY:
This is the most direct comparison we have between Revan and Darth Vader in ability and power. Vader notes in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force that he failed to mindtrick a Toydarian without using a great deal of his power and telekinetic pressure. By itself, this is not a bad showing: Toydarians have evolved through millenia to be naturally resistant to the Force. However, when Revan visited Lehon as a Sith Lord, he telepathically dominated over a thousand highly-Force resistant Rakata, individuals that are likewise biologically resistant. Revan ripped the Rakatan language from the Black and Red Rakata tribes, then drove Basic into all their minds.
As to the point that it was all the Rakata and not just The One and the Elder Tribe, every Red and Black Rakatan encountered in Knights of the Old Republic are incredibly fluent in understanding Basic. The notion that they taught Basic to each other ignores the fact that the Rakata are an wholly isolated group of primitives with no contact with the outside world and believed Revan had permanently left them. Simply put, there is no reason why such lessons would be taught, especially among “the thousand” of Black Rakata who are savage, cavemen-esque barbarians who only care about destroying the Red Rakata.
Overall, simply influencing one Rakakta is a blatant demonstration of superiority over Vader, but by also using a far more advanced variant of the practice against an incredibly larger force show shows Revan’s in a league beyond Vader. It is highly probable that Revan can use telepathy and sorcery to gain or maintain the upper-hand against Vader in the fight. As demonstrated in The Force Unleashed II and Dynasty of Evil, Vader only needs to be affected for a split second for the consequence to be lethal. However, given their vast distinction in telepathic and Force ability, and Vader having little feats to indicate otherwise, it is highly probable Revan outright shatters Vader to the floor with telepathy.
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FORCE IN BALANCE:
My apologies for the quote spam, but all of them are important. Darth Gravid, a mid-lineage Banite Sith, was driven to insanity trying to ”straddle” and merge Jedi and Sith philosophy. However, Revan successfully learned to achieve this and use both sides simultaneously. This is drastically underrated, since it is a demonstration of knowledge and mastery of the intricacies of the Force unreplicated by any other Jedi or Sith, despite even Banite Sith trying. Further, this grants Revan immeasurable power, since he can essentially enter a state otherwise only achievable in Oneness at will, as highlighted with The Unifying Force. On the Foundry, Revan focuses his Balance attack inwards and becomes radically more powerful, with the game noting, "Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of” and “Revan has become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” While these statements are obvious hyperbole in reference to Revenge of the Sith, they nonetheless reveal that Revan can radically heighten his own powers at will for a period of time.
(Continued . . . )
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I do not need to match anything; you have hardly presented me with one actual feat for Darth Vader this entire debate. Vader cannot do any of the things you listed, nor is mockery an argument. You fail to address Queen Amanoa’s feat of unleashing Waves of Hatred that engulf a city and devastate thousands of Beast Riders, which alone is frankly more impressive than anything Vader has shown. If Amanoa can do that by drawing off the residual energy of Freedon Nadd’s tomb, we can quickly and definitively conclude Nadd himself could replicate it to a much greater proportion and effect. Then, we have Darth Malak, who is ”far greater” than Nadd, yet Revan can break him many times over. This direct, applicable power-only line of scaling yields Revan as a Force user ways beyond Vader’s paygrade. Although it is hard to reconcile telekinesis with other abilities, I fail to see Vader likewise affecting thousands with his raw power and hatred, let alone doing it many, many times over like Revan can. Or, we can look at Exar Kun, who Revan is also ”far greater than”. As you know, Exar has frozen tens of thousands individually instantly and is “far more powerful” than Jedi who can ”buckle” Ryloth heat storms. The fact the Jedi were affected by the Force stasis is irrelevant to the point Exar handily affected such a large population so effectively. Vader has never shown power on such a scale.
POWER:
However, scaling can any take you so far. Let us take a look at Revan’s power. I admit, Revan may not have a lot of environmental telekinetic feats. However, what he does have, which I find far more combat applicable, is raw dominance of some of the most powerful Force users in history. Darth Nyriss is an incredibly underrated Sith. Nyriss had refined her mastery of the Sith arts for decades, gaining an understanding of the ancient arts that was beyond Scourge’s ability to fathom. Simple bursts of her lightning were potent enough that Meetra Surik and Scourge - two very formidable opponents - opted not to handle it with their lightsabers but rather by completely jumping out of the way from it. It was also capable of instantly turning two guards to charred husks. Nyriss stood over the beaten Meetra and Scourge and charged her energy for an immense Force lightning storm. The text notes that this attack would had “incinerated” them both, which is a display of Force lightning against other individuals only demonstrably surpassed by Vitiate and the Emperor themselves.
Despite this, Revan, who had just been in prison, tortured, and injected with Force-hindering drugs for three years, walks up, absorbs the Force lightning, then deflects it back at her as if it was nothing. Look at how the Essential Reader’s Companion describes it: ”Revan’s raw power in the Force bends Nyris’s Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.” Note that this is a defense that requires one to outright summon their energies, as shown by Revan needing to do so against Vitiate later on. Thus, Revan is capable of summoning such destructive energy that he can disintegrate Darth Nyriss-tier opponents, even when they are armed with a lightsaber, instantly. Said power is applicable in a combat situation, given the circumstances of his feat mirrored that with what would present itself on the battlefield (i.e. only having a fraction of a second to unleash your power). Furthermore, when one considers that Revan was certainly not in his best shape, performed the feat without any indication of strain, and is perhaps before his prime in Shadow of Revan, this feat is simply monstrous. The fact is only a few beings have shown raw power comparable to this, and Darth Vader is certainly not on that list.
And then there is Revan turning Darth Marr and Satele Shan into helpless fidget spinners, but I will give you some fresh air and wait until next post for that juicy story.
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I have a proposal for you: show me a feat by Darth Vader comparable to beating down a Force titan radically beyond the Jedi Exiles and far more powerful than Exar Kun multiple times in a row after fighting through armies of Dark Jedi and Star Forge enhanced war droids while hindered by one of the most potent dark side nexus’ in history and I will clock him at Knights of the Old Republic Revan level. When we get to Shadow of Revan, it is difficult to even form a proposal since Revan has taken the level of power described, perfected it to wield both sides of the Force simultaneously, and is now quasi-invincible with telepathic powers Vader cannot hope to stand again. And unfortunately, being telekinetically dominated by Galen Marek and blasted to submission by an hilariously exhausted Starkiller does not qualify as a counter. How about you use his fights against Darth Maul Ben Kenobi Luke Skywalker -- oh, right, sorry, nevermind. At this point, it might be less embarrassing if you just made one up, since Vader has nothing but empty hype and false promises.